When there's friction between Sales and Customer Success, it's easy for each team to point fingers at the other. Sales gets frustrated when customers aren't launching quickly enough, while Customer Success feels like they're being left to manage expectations they didn't set. I've seen how quickly that tension can build, especially when neither team fully appreciates the pressures the other is facing.
I once stepped into a sales leadership role and discovered more than $10 million in closed deals that hadn't launched. There were real issues with how my team was closing business, and there were also assumptions being made about what the sales team had promised customers. I had to dig into the actual conversations, work with Customer Success leadership, and figure out where we needed to improve. That experience reinforced how important it is for leaders to set the tone for collaboration and be willing to ask difficult questions about their own teams, too.
In this episode of The Real Work of Leadership, I'm joined by Eleni Vorvis to talk about the relationship between Sales and Customer Success and what it takes to improve that partnership. Drawing on our experiences working across both functions, we discuss what creates friction, how leaders can build accountability without putting teams on the defensive, and what needs to happen so everyone is working toward a better customer experience.
1:58 – Meet Eleni Vorvis and her experience across Sales and Customer Success
5:20 – Where friction between Sales and Customer Success begins
6:06 – Elisa's experience navigating $10 million in closed deals that hadn't launched
7:21 – Misconceptions Sales and Customer Success have about each other's roles
11:00 – Challenging assumptions about Sales with actual customer conversations
13:24 – The information Customer Success needs from Sales for a successful handoff
17:51 – Building a better handoff process through cross-functional leadership
19:40 – Preparing for onboarding without making customers repeat themselves
23:25 – Keeping Sales, Customer Success, and Implementation aligned when issues arise
29:21 – Giving feedback and building accountability without putting teams on the defensive
34:18 – The leadership behaviors that strengthen collaboration and develop team members
40:22 – Sales and Customer Success pet peeves and what each team should stop doing
44:27 – Elisa's practical challenge for improving cross-functional collaboration
Connect with Eleni Vorvis
Eleni Vorvis is a Customer Success leader, consultant, and coach with more than 20 years of experience across Sales and Customer Success. She began her career in Sales before transitioning into Customer Success, where she has held both individual contributor and leadership roles across several technology companies.
Today, Eleni serves as Fractional VP of Customer Success at CoachEm and works with organizations to strengthen their Customer Success teams through consulting, coaching, and workshops. Her work focuses on developing leaders and helping Customer Success teams take a more active role in driving revenue and delivering value to customers.
Connect with Eleni Vorvis on LinkedIn
Mentioned In Improving Sales and Customer Success Collaboration with Eleni Vorvis
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Eilsa Hawkins: Leadership theory is easy, leading actual people, while you're managing up, putting out fires, thinking strategically, and still trying to hit the number, is something else entirely. Hi, I'm Elisa Hawkins, and welcome to The Real Work of Leadership. We're getting into the conversations decisions, organizational dynamics and real-life pressure that come with leading a team and being responsible for the results.
Sales closes the deal. Customer success takes over. Sounds simple, right? Until the customer says, that is not what I was promised. Today on The Real Work of Leadership, Eleni Vorvis joins me to unpack the friction between sales and customer success, what each team needs from the other, and how leaders build a partnership that works for the customer.
Hey everyone. Welcome to The Real Work of Leadership Podcast. Today I am so excited to have this conversation because it is such a pain point for so many people. And it is about cross-collaboration between sales and customer success. Sales closes the deal. Customer success inherits the customer, and it sounds simple until it isn't. And in this episode, we're getting into the real relationship between sales and customer success, and why the handoff between these teams can either streak the revenue, or quietly and sometimes loudly undermine the revenue. We'll talk about expectations, trust, accountability, difficult conversations, and what happens when the two teams stop protecting their individual functions and start thinking about the entire customer journey. And it all begins with the leadership of these teams. Because closing the deal isn't the finish line, it's the beginning of delivering for your customer. So I am joined today by Eleni Vorvis. So, tell us a little bit about yourself if you would.
Eleni Vorvis: Sure, so I have spent my entire career in go-to-market. I started off working in Sales, but was actually doing some early Customer Success Work, even back in 2004, because I was the individual that interacted with the customers once they had signed up; and this was like market research, so IBC was the company. So, Sales not only closed deals, but they managed the customer relationship. So I would book all the contracts and then work with customers to give them access to their research, and access to analysts. So, early CS, but I also did Inside Sales for that organization as well. And then I worked for a small start-up as a BDR. So I think I bring an interesting perspective to the conversation, having reported and sat within a Sales organization, and then I shifted over into the Success world in 2009.
So, I've been a CSM. I've been a CS Leader at a variety of different companies. It's always been a different industry that we're serving, which has been fun, because I've gotten the chance to work with Open-Source scanning tools, Employee Recognition software, software for Procurement Teams, Call Center; so, kind of the variety, and I feel that CS may vary slightly in each of those technology areas, but a lot of the themes, like carry through.So, I did that up until 2023; and then I was impacted by a layoff, like so many other individuals, so I decided to start working for myself and doing Fractional and Consulting work. So I work for a company called Cochem, as their Fractional VP of Customer Success, and they are providing an AI Chief of Staff for Frontline Sales and Customer Success Managers. So, the ability also for those teams to really develop their skills, and to be able to leverage data and CRM and Call Intelligence for better coaching conversations, which I think is a really big need in the market, especially today; because I find that individuals are getting promoted into Leadership Roles or People Leader Roles and they're not always given the upscaling and the information that they need on how do you have a coaching conversation. So that's really relevant. And then I have also been focusing on facilitating workshops to really help enable CSM teams that are making that transition from a Cost Center to a Revenue-Generating CS.
Eilsa Hawkins: I feel that so much, and what we're talking about, especially with coaching, because that is actually what I do in The Real Work of Leadership because we are really great at promoting top performers. Companies are not great at preparing them for what the actual work looks like, and that leaves teams, not just the accountability level, but the true career development level, which is what is so needed from a leadership role when you're leading a team.
And I also hear you because I actually went to the Account Management side in my career. And so, where I had been pure Hunter Role for a long time and my career in Sales, and then I transitioned. And it was actually the best thing I could have done because I learned that it gave me such a rounded development of understanding the customer journey and what each team faces. So it was really important.
Eleni Vorvis: Yes, absolutely.
Eilsa Hawkins: Tell me, why can Sales and Customer Success become adversaries? What is that tension?
Eleni Vorvis: Yes, I think the tension comes with making assumptions about each other's roles, responsibilities, and motivations. I think if we're not truly understanding what it's like to work in Saleswhen we're in CS and vice versa, we just make assumptions, and we make assumptions that start to create friction or expectations that were never even laid out in the first place as just people's idea of what they think CS should be and what Sales should be when they're not in that particular team, doing the day-to-day work. I also think Leadership sets the tone for how those teams are perceived, and the way in which those teams work together in an organization.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, I couldn't agree more because I came in to lead a team and it was a Sales Team, and I discovered that ten million dollars, or more, was not launching. So, I then immediately started digging in to try to figure out what was happening there. You know, and what I quickly discovered was that the Sales Team was closing deals before they were actually one. And so that left it like in no man's land really, and Onboarding was rushing around, CS was rushing around, trying to get them to launch, but it was a coaching opportunity for us to coach Sale. And then on the flip side, the tension between the two teams, because of all of these sales, was so great I had to try and navigate that. And from the Leadership perspective, working with the Leadership Team on Customer Success to identify where my team had areas of opportunity; and then also, "Hey what areas of opportunity do we have on the CS side?". That's their purview, right? But it starts with having those sometimes-difficult conversations, right, and really asking questions about what's happening there. And that definitely starts with Leadership. So, what does Sales misunderstand, do you think, about CS?
Eleni Vorvis: I think sometimes, at least from my perspective, they think that Renewals can be easy, or like working with the customer and getting that Renewal should be a no-brainer. Or it doesn't take a lot of work, or even just how you interact with the customer on a day-to-day, the way that you build the relationship and the things that get asked of you. I think if they've never been in the role, they don't really see how complex it is, or how the customer really relies on their CSM to be that individual to help them get their questions answered, even though they may not be the individual who has all of the answers.
So, I remember one of my early CSM jobs, I did hear that comment of oh, you know, "Renewals are easy", or " You guys are just order takers", and that really made me mad because, I think that they just were not understanding our world. And then they did get the opportunity to work on some of the Renewals alongside us, and then I think there was a change in the tone and the way that they were perceiving us, understanding what it's like to work in our world. Or you know, I think in the past also, it'slike the CS is the Happiness Department. They're just focused on building that relationship, and if the customer is happy, the rest will come. And so that's, you know, something that I've heard and not only from Sales Teams, but other parts of the organization, or even individuals, may not know a lot about what it takes to be in CS. Or sometimes they think we're just Customer Service or more support oriented, where that can be an area within CS, but it doesn't encompass everything that CS does.
Eilsa Hawkins: It's so true and, you know, one thing you didn't mention is when the customer isn't happy, because 100% of the customers are not 100% happy all the time. And so, whether it be a product issue or something of that nature that the customer is dealing with, the CS Team has to lead through that and there's a lot of challenges that the CS Team faces that Sales doesn't see, the Organization doesn't see, that you're in the day-to-day dealing with, you know, potential issues, or things like that.
And I think that that's an important part for Sales and all of the Organizations to understand. And especially if you're trying to get a Renewal and there's an issue happening, and that renewal is going to be put off, right; and so I love that. What do you think CS misunderstands about Sales?
Eleni Vorvis: I think that CS makes assumptions that Sales just care about their commission and closing that deal, and making money and doing it at any cost, regardless of whether the Customer is a fit for the Organization or will end up, you know, implementing Going Live. And having that adoption, kind of going through the Customer journey, I think people bring in maybe misconceptions around a bad experience they've had with the Salesperson outside of the Org that they work in. So, hearing a lot of people being like, "Oh, I don't want to be in sales.". Sales is feeling like it's this profession that I think gets a lot of criticism, because people think of like, not a Software Salesperson, but they'll think of like buying a car, whether it's new, or used and kind of that experience. And so there, again, they're making their own assumptions about the personality, the integrity of the individual; you know, that they're not wanting to be as collaborative, maybe with CS because they're so focused on like hitting their number, telling the customer what they want to hear sometimes, and then we're there to clean up the mess afterwards. So, those are the things that I've heard as perceptions of Sales from the CS Lens.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, and one of the things that I discovered when I was trying to really bring these two teams together, the Sales and CS, and the story I just shared, is I was getting a lot of CS leaders coming to me saying, "We've got issues with the Sales Team, issues with the Sales Team", and I'm like, "Okay, absolutely, I want to hear about this, but I need examples.". So I started asking questions, and I startedasking for "Hey, send me the call recordings, send me all of this". So, they sent me 12 examples with note and then links to the calls. And so what I did is I dug through all of those and only one of those instances was there a coaching opportunity for my Sales Team. Because what had happened in some of these is I went back and I listened to the actual sales call. Then I listened to the CS call. I listened to all of the calls, the entire journey. And in some of these instances, the Customer had agreed, the Customer was ready to launch, gave a date and then reneged on it when it was in that. So, it wasn't the Salesperson trying to push it, because I think a lot of CS Teams don't understand, from a sales' compensation standpoint, Sales wants it to launch, Sales wants it to stay because they can be, sometimes, paid six months to a year, depending, so they want the customer to be happy, and they want to do everything that they can because their commission is directly relational to that. So they do want to see a healthy Customer journey. So, I think that sometimes is a misconception as well, for sure.
Eleni Vorvis: Yes because there isn't transparency around the compensation. And so that causes a lot of problems, and a lot of friction, especially if the way that each team is being compensated contradicts what the end goal is, of working with the customer or there may be the competing priorities, depending on the goals and the way that you're being measured as a CSM, as an AE, or as a leader of either of those teams.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I think that we could all do a better job, for sure of really trying to understand and ask questions about each other's roles and pressures. Because each team has different sets of pressures on them, right? And I think we get so caught up in our own world that we only see our pressure; we don't see the other team's pressure. And I think we could all do a better job, really, of navigating through that for sure.
So let's talk about the handoff. You and I have talked about the infamous handoff. So what information does CS need and I know it's going to vary in different Organizations, depending on the complexities. But what does CS really need from Sales for the Customer to have a good experience onboarding, and afterwards?
Eleni Vorvis: Yeah, great question. I think the most important piece is understanding how we're going to deliver value for the customer; first and foremost, we now live in a world where we have to beo utcomes-focused, not only as a Customer Success Team, but as an Organization who claims to be Customer centric and working towards a customer's goal. If we're not understanding why they bought the solution, what they expect to gain. And it usually falls into a few different buckets right there, either they're looking to increase their revenue, decrease their costs, improve efficiency, and reduce risk, right?
More or less, those are the types of things that companies are interested in, but really understanding how they're going to measure success, and then the CS Team will figure out how we then deliver value on that. But first and foremost, having that information is really important. And I can't emphasize enough that, that is something that should be a mandatory thing. If it's not in a sealed organization, then I have concerns because how are you even in ensuring that a customer is within the ICP and that we can deliver on what they're looking to achieve. So that's the most important thing. I think it helps everybody that's post-sales understand "here's what we're trying to achieve".
I think when you're looking at Enterprise Level software, there's going to be the implementation team that needs a variety of information on other specific integrations we need to focus on. Are they ones that are existing? Do we need to build any new Integrations? How are we leveraging APIs? How is this project going to go from an implementation standpoint is also really important. They care about the technical aspects of the project. Understanding all of the stakeholders and really making sure that we have access to everybody at those different levels, not just the end users and the champion. We also need to leverage the Executive Sponsor and have them included in the journey, where it makes sense, to make sure we're multi-threading as an Organization. I think also being able to understand those personalities.
I think we have to remember when we're working on an enterprise-deal, a Salesperson could be working on something for a year, right? There's a lot of complexity around it; they spend a lot of time talking to this Prospect that has become a Customer. So they're going to know a lot about their personalities, their motivations, their communication styles. So, I also find that that aspect is really important to understand the people who are going to be part of this relationship. You can get a sense of that, you know, as you have conversations with them, but understanding going into it, who may be the individual that might be a little bit more skeptical about the success, or may push back, or has to be more convinced through data, etc. I think just understanding those motivations is also very important in the handoff process. If there's any risk or red flags that have been identified; and then, also opportunities for growth. Has the customer mentioned how they plan to maybe expand the relationship or in many cases, they want to see success in one area and may be very specifically focused on what those criteria are, that then earns usthe right for additional conversations. So understanding that growth path, I think, is also very key in the handoff process. So, those are the, I would say, major things to be on the lookout for, to be shared with the Team.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, I completely agree. And one of the things that actually, that I coach Leaders on, when they're coaching their Teams, is measurement of success is something that should be asked for in the Sale Cycle. You know, having multi-threaded, multiple, because you would not only have decision-makers, but you also have influencers that need to be on the call, too. And whether that be in a 30-day Sales Motion Cycle, or a Complex. We have a higher chance of winning business the more information we get, the more people we have involved in the process with us that we're not depending on somebody within the Organization that doesn't have our expertise to sell for us.
One of the things that I found really helpful is when I was working with the Leadership Team of CS and as a Leader in Sales, was to develop a checklist for the Sales Team; and what we use that as is like, this is information you should be gathering throughout the Sales Process because this is going to be critical to the success of this Customer. And it was such a light bulb moment for the Sales Team because they were like, "oh my God, yeah, this totally makes sense, I didn't think about it". So really partnering together to understand what makes a great Customer Journey and what we can do to set up CS for success, I think, it's super important.
Eleni Vorvis: Absolutely, and making it easy, too, for them to just input that information right in the CRM, there in Salesforce or HubSpot, all of the time; so, let's just make it something that is in their day-to-day flow and then helping them understand why the information matters and how the lack of gathering this information affects the Customer in the long run. I think that oftentimes we kind of rush putting together the checklist, or the process, and we don't take a step back to think, "well let's help the team understand like why this matters, how this can also help them be a better seller, you know; bring more value to the Customer Conversation or the Prospect Conversation", and in many cases how they can, maybe, leverage some of us, and CS, or use some techniques that we've used that can also help to say to the Prospect,
"Okay, they really are invested in the Customer Journey and helping us prepare for what we need to do from an implementation perspective, who we need to have on hand and helping to just make that information flow a lot easier for the prospect as well.Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, absolutely. And on the flipside of that, it's super important that if the Sales Team is putting all this in so that they have all this great information, that the CS Team reads it. Because I've seen this happen, too, where we are on an onboarding call or we're on their first call with the CS Team, and the questions being asked are things that the Customer has already answered. And they have said, well we've already shared this, right? And so, it looks like it's disjointed. So I think it's super important for the Sales Team to receive that information, ask the customer for all of these great resources and information that the CS Team needs, and vice versa. It's important for the CS Team to review that. And then even dive deeper, if they need to; but, to read it, and really prepare for it, for sure.
Eleni Vorvis: Yes, absolutely. That is a very, I cringe when I hear that, but I know that it's happening. That people are not taking the time to review the information, and you get into that conversation and it's like their first impression of what happens post sales. And yes, people are saying, "well I already told you that", and I think people sometimes, maybe, get a bit nervous or, like, "oh, if I ask these questions, then it'll help me to cement this relationship" or "feel more comfortable". You can ask some clarifying questions, you can validate, "here is what we heard", because sometimes there can be a bit of a time lag, right, from when they shared the information in the Sales Cycle to when the deal finally closed, to when we schedule the Kickoff Call and talk to the Customer. So, you can validate and say, "here were your goals X amount of time ago. Is this still on track for you? Has anything changed? Do we need to be aware of anything coming up that could impact timelines, priorities, etc.?".
It's the way that you ask questions, too, that are helpful and you're just validating, again, "Here is what we know". That always, I think, works great with Customers, "Here is what we've been told. Here is what we know. Is there anything missing or anything that would be best for me to hear directly from you?". Because sometimes there is the opportunity, right, for a customer to really open up and give us even more information once we've set the tone for the conversation we want to have and what we already know. So yes, both sides need to be prepared. I always advocate for having a quick little sync, internally, before the call happens, to see - Was the information clear that was shared? Did that bring up additional questions that we want to cover? Or sometimes it kind of raises a flag to say, because we've done this in CS a lot with our Customers, "We're identifying a potential risk that you may not have realized in Sales, right? That gives the opportunity to also show the Sales Team, "Here is how we're thinking of things, and
we know that this might be a little bit of a challenge, so we want to make sure we are covering this topic in the right way. So, don't be surprised, Salesperson, if we're going to talk about it in this way, in theKickoff Meeting, and we need to bring it up. We're not going to sugarcoat things. We need to course correct, or we need to reset an expectation, and here's how we're going to do it.". Like, helping people understand what to expect. That way no one feels like they were misinformed going into that call with the Customer.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, the partnership is critical. And what I found works, sometimes it doesn't, but for the most part it does is when you have kind of a pot, right? So you have Sales and CS aligned and then an Onboarding Team, if there's an Onboarding Team involved, you know, that is super critical because it starts to build the trust. It starts to build that partnership that then, the Customer sees that, feels it, and feels it throughout their journey with the Company. I think that is super important to have that partnership, absolutely.
Eleni Vorvis: Consistency. Everybody in the same room, during that conversation, because implementation plays such a big role and, really, what they do in that first 90 days sets the tone for how that Customer is going to see success and deliver value, and they have that technical lens that they look at it from; and the Project Manager, right, has their ability to manage the Stakeholders, manage the project timelines. So, it's like all of those people are important, the CSM has their vantage point and also being clear on, "here's your role in this call and your role in working with the Customer". Because the other thing that can happen, that I think is important, is we don't want the customer being dissatisfied with an answer they receive from the Implementation Person, the Project Manager and then they try to go to their CSM, or they try to go back to the Salesperson, because they want to get a different answer.
And then they do get that different answer, which then undermines the collaborative effort, and the alignment that we're trying to build internally. It should be if they go to a different person. No answer should be provided that is not vetted out by everybody, to make sure we're on the same page. Because I've seen it happen where it goes back to the Salesperson, they're doing what they think is best, right?
May be reacting quickly and not thinking to bring in other people. Then the Customer comes back to Us or the Salesperson says, "hey, we're going to do it this way", and we're like, "well, I'm sorry, but, you're not an Implementation Expert, you're not a CS Expert. I don't think you understand the implications of this decision or the statement that you're making" and so being able to be really candid when you're having those internal conversations to say, like, "let's make sure we're all going to be on the same page if a customer reaches out; they're dissatisfied about something". We'll share it internally through whatever communication mediums we have set up because those vary at each Organization, but it is an importantpart of making sure that we're not going to make a promise or do something that then is like, undermining the way that we operate and how we expect our Customers to work with us.
Yes, people can be unhappy, right? And they may not like what we have to say, but we lay out clear Escalation Pass, also. That's part of the Kickoff Process, and something I've implemented at Organizations
I've worked with to make sure we make it very clear, if there is something going off track, if there's a red flag, we try to solve it as a Project Team. If that doesn't work, we escalate to our Executive Sponsors on either side, and they will then have a conversation to figure out how we move forward. Not these like, back-channel, back- door, I'm going to reach out to the Founder and the CEO because I know I'll get my way. It's not scalable, and it's not going to work out. well in the end.
Eilsa Hawkins: It's not. And I think you brought up the react, and I think it's super important because a Salesperson could have never promised them anything; have not promised that if "hey, our Experts On Implementation and CS are going to walk through this. This is typically the timeline that we see, but you know the more we dive into it, things could change". Like, I've seen that happen, too, where the Customer said, "Well that's not what the Salesperson told me", and then in actuality it was what they said, you know. So I think it's critical for both teams to not automatically react and because the Sales Team is under pressure to get this, you know, to get this client launched, spend a lot of time on it. Let's get them going. And the CS is under pressure to do the same thing, but also to set clear boundaries and expectations, so we don't set up the Customer for failure, right? And we don't set ourselves up for failure and not delivering on something or executing on something that we promised. I think that's critical.
Eleni Vorvis: Yeah, that's a great. That's a great point. I think that we have such a tendency, just as humans, to react and you're right just because the customers saying, well, the Salesperson told me otherwise or no, that's not how I understand the way your product works, you have to just pause and be like, okay, well they probably have had multiple conversations. They could be confusing us with, maybe they were talking to a competitor, maybe in their mind, they thought that the Salesperson told them, X Y and Z. So that's where, if you've got the Salesperson on that Kickoff Call, they can very quickly chime in and say, "as you recall, we had this conversation... or, if this comes up after the Kickoff Call, or in another conversation where Sales isn't included, you take in the information, say, "thank you for providing this feedback. I'm going to go and have a quick chat with The Team and I'm going to get back to you, because I was not part of those conversations, and I want to make sure that I'm not making any assumptions; andso we'll clear this up and we'll get back to you". And then you get off that call. You reach out to the Salesperson, and you say, here is what I heard, or send the recording and say verbatim is what the customer is saying. I'm going to err on the side of perhaps they misunderstood you. I think that's the best way, too, to interact.
Eilsa Hawkins: Exactly
Eleni Vorvis: Whether in Sales or CS, perhaps they misunderstood. Do you know why they might be bringing this up; because it wasn't in the notes, it wasn't part of our conversation. It wasn't in the Kickoff. Why are they maybe suddenly talking about this?
Eilsa Hawkins: It's so critical. And that's part of the partnership, right? And not just assuming that either Sales did something wrong, or Sales not assuming that CS did something, you know, that we're not operating in the fight mode, right? And that like because they're there are times and the Customer, to your point, could have been talking with other folks and been told a different answer or different guide on something, and they just confused it, or their perception was different, you know; they heard something, they heard what they wanted to hear basically, it's sometimes, you know, versus what was actually said. So I think it's just super critical to align, you know, for sure on that. How should sales receive that feedback without becoming defensive? And I also want to talk about CS, like how can both Teams not get into that defensive posture with one another?
Eleni Vorvis: Yeah, I think the same methodology applies. We have to look at it as feedback is a gift, and if the leaders on both sides are setting this up to say as part of our working together and really understanding what makes a Customer successful, renewable, expandable versus where do we see early signs of turn, or where did we, after-the-fact, do a retrospective and say, "oh, well this turn probably happened at this point in the process", and so looking at it as a "we're not going to get in there and point fingers to people and call a blame game, and nobody's taking accountability". If we are an organization across the board that says we are each accountable for our actions, our decisions, our interactions in the way we treat people with respect. That's what really, I think, creates the environment for people to open up and to feel comfortable.I think it's the psychological safety that needs to be there for people to share that information. If there are things like they're hearing that the Sales Leader is speaking poorly about the CS Leader and the CS team to the Sales Reps, right, that's going to affect their perspective going into conversations. Similarly, if the CS Leader is talking poorly about the Sales Team, and so we have to really remember to be adults about this; and to go into it the best way, to have somebody be receptive to your feedback, is to be respectful about the way you share it, not to blame, and to come with examples. You can't just make a broad stroke assumption, "the Sales Team isn't doing, they don't know what they're talking about, they're making promises that don't exist, they're having CS do way more work than is needed because they think that the CSM should be at their beck and call and do work that's actually the Customer's responsibility". We can't go in with those broad strokes. We have to be very careful on how we do that, and same with, like, CS to Sales. We have to just make sure that everyone is feeling like they can speak up. There are no repercussions, unless there is somebody who is just, you know, that bad apple or that individual that is not collaborative, that, like, doesn't care regardless of how many times they've been given feedback and, you know, there are people out there unfortunately, that that's just the way that they operate., and I think they're not going to be a good fit for the Org, And eventually they will get put on a pip and get, like, escorted out of the Organization. I think those are the exceptions. The rules should be, we're all one team. Yes, we may be different departments. Sometimes we roll up under the same leader, but everyone wants to do what's best for the Company and the Customer.
That's the way you create those, like, Let's get together. Let's actually, like, share the information across the board versus making it a very like, oh, we're just going to target the bad things, and also start with some good feedback. Why don't you share the things that are working really well? Let's give some accolades, let's give some praise and then go into, like, the areas of opportunity or you can do like the feedback sandwich - start with, like, the good stuff, but in the middle do some stuff that's not so great, then end on a high note, a "Here's what we can do together to make things easier for both sides or to kind of eliminate us, like, getting the same, like, pattern recognition. If we don't bring it up, then we can't get upset that it continues to happen.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah. Because you can't fix a problem that you don't know exists.
Eleni Vorvis: Right. and Leadership is there to help, but at the same time, I've always encouraged my team, like, if you are a little bit frustrated with an individual. You're finding, like, you're not really seeing eye to eye. I always challenge them to say, "Have you taken the opportunity to just a chat with them, like set the business aside to see, like, how is that person? What motivates them? What gets them excited? What may be going on right now in their lives that maybe is affecting their personality, the way they're showing up at work. Let's try to build out those personal relationships. Give yourself achance to like, give that person, the direct feedback. See how they receive it. If they're going to be combative and disrespectful and you find that it's just not working because you've had to have multiple, then bringing Leadership, or if we see patterns. But try to do the work yourself. It's similar to having a Customer who's a bit of a challenge. You don't just like, give up and bring in your boss. You try to figure out what may be going wrong, and maybe just have an open conversation to say, "I'm feeling like there's a little bit of friction here. Help me understand what may be going on. Is there a different, like, is there another way that we should be showing up for you and your Team? Help me understand what's going on." And, in many cases, people will be open about sharing what's top of mind for them.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, I always coach Leaders, too, because it starts at the top. So like, how you start off is you mean to go. And so if we're going to build a partnership that starts with leadership. So, you can't be talking shit about each other, number one, or the Teams. And you have to, I would always tell, I would always coach Leaders, and I would always tell my Team, if you're coming with a problem, I want to know why it's an issue, how it's an issue, and what is your proposed solution? Because, and I loved your point about solving it if it's an individual's, try to encourage them to solve it on their own. Because that's development. Because, that's how you, it's not just about coaching on from a Sales or CS, and how you own coaching a call, it's also understanding those dynamics and building their own leadership and being able to solve issues. So, leadership is not always having to get involved, right? And I think that that's super important, and it can't always be about the challenges to your, I love that you said that, because it's so true. Let's celebrate the great partnerships that we have. The Customer Journeys that went fantastic, and they started off at this level and now they've grown exponentially, because of the great experience that they had throughout every process from being a Prospect, and now being a full Customer with us, and Partnership with us. So, it's super important.
Eleni Vorvis: You got to give credit where credit is due, and then that's the thing, and also highlight the relationships that were working well. If there's a CSM and an AE that have a really great dynamic, let's think about how do we replicate that, and I think the way you replicate it is give those two individuals an opportunity to talk about how they came together.
Because it's not always this easy thing, and I, you know, people might listen to this podcast or think "Oh, they just have this stuff figured out. They just know what to do". At least for me, I can't speak for you, but it's probably similar, I know what to do, because I've done the things that you shouldn't do. As I learned, right? I had an experience where I was getting frustrated, not as a Leader, as an individual contributor about another individual contributor, and instead of taking the time to talk to that person, I was just like frustrated, so I was venting to my fellow CSM's, and then my boss at the time, came to me and said, "The Team looks at you as a Senior Member of the Team. The way that you talk about otherTeams; they're going to listen; they're going to absorb that, so you, it's helpful for you to understand the magnitude that, that holds. It does then taint their perception of this person, or maybe of the Sales Team. So, we was, when I was earlier on in my career, yeah, I mean, we all make these types of missteps and I said, "You know what, you're absolutely right". I was grateful that I got that feedback at the moment in time, right, where it happened. I think that's also really important. Then I said, "Okay, I'm going to have a conversation with this individual". Then, having that conversation, I then understood, okay, the way you're being compensated in Sales kind of is conflicting a bit with what we're doing in CS.
This is bigger than the two of us, we need to go back to our Leaders and say, "Hey, I didn't realize this was going on. It would be helpful as an individual contributor to kind of know these, how people are being compensated because here's how, then it affects the way that we work together". So kind of, I was then able to see things from that different vantage point, and very quickly learn, right? "Okay, that's not the thing to do. There was no irreparable damage done". I mean, people are just okay, when I would hear them then make a comment about the Sales Team, I would say, "You know what? I know I said that before and I vented. I took the time to do X, Y, and Z. I encourage you to have that conversation, because I think you'll find that we are misunderstanding each other, and this is where these like, this friction is coming from, and we really have an opportunity to change things moving forward.", and kind of just model through that an individual contributor, I think really helps when people go back and say, "You know what, I know I was saying X, Y and Z, and I was venting, but I was reacting, and that's not the best thing to do; and here's what I would recommend that you do moving forward". And that really helps to set the tone, and then you see how it changes the dynamic, and the attitude of a team. It can really spread across individual contributors in a very positive way.
Eilsa Hawkins: It's so true, and I love that you shared that. Because, what a great development opportunity for you, because if your Leader had not come to you, and had kind of like that feedback conversation and really, you know, holding you accountable for how you're speaking to other Team Members, and that you're a Leader on the Team, right? That's such a, I coach Leaders a lot on this, and I actually have a whole section in my Accelerator about this, because the feedback is super important, even if it's tough feedback. It is super important because if you're not delivering that tough feedback, in an empathetic way, because what your Leader showed you, is like, "Hey, you're a Leader on the Team and your other Team Members are ingesting this information, so therefore they're going to have a preconceived notion about this person and that's going to create conflict, right? So, they handled it in a way that you really absorbed that feedback and it's super important. And I want Leaders that are listening to this, that feedback is super important for development because if you're not giving that feedback, your team is not developing. So I think that's a great example and I know we're talking about this. Yes, I agree. I have made a ton of mistakes in my career and that's the reason I'm super passionateabout this subject, because I haven't always done it well. Then, I had to learn from all of these mistakes, and what I really want to share with people on this podcast and beyond is like learn from our mistakes, right? We learn from this, and this is what good can look like if done well.
Let's talk about some just lightning round questions. So, the biggest Sales to CS pet peeve - what do you think that is?
Eleni Vorvis: The biggest Sales to CS pet peeve? I think it's like lack of the right information, like just not having enough information and wondering, "Where did it go?", or "What are you talking about in your conversations with the Prospect?"
Eilsa Hawkins: Where the heck did this come from? And so, I think the biggest Sales to CS pet peeve is that the Sales believes, I'm not saying this is accurate, I think the biggest pet peeve is the speed to implementation, and the speed to getting the Customer onboarded. I think that that's the biggest one, I would say, yeah.
But I think that, if Sales is given all of the information, and we're in partnership together, like we've talked so much about on today's call, that implementation might be sped up quicker if we're all working together, right? So, yeah. So, one thing Sales should stop doing tomorrow.
Eleni Vorvis: I think Sales can tend to want to give an answer to the Prospect, right, so I would say sometimes it's like if you're not sure that the software is working in a specific way, or you just don't know, just say, "You know what? That's a great question. I will get back to you". It's just better to do that than to give an answer that they're really going to stick to, that then affects the rest of the Journey.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yes. And one of the things I coach Sellers on is to say, "Hey, I think I know the answer", because a lot of times what they do is they don't want to look like they're not an expert. The Sales Team doesn't want to, because they're spending this time, they want, they're trying to build trust, and so they think that if they just give an answer really quick that they, you know, but that answer can be incorrect and can disrupt that Journey. And so I always coach Sellers - If you don't know the answer, don't say that you do, and say, "I think I know the answer", still, you're still building that trust, "but, let me just double check because I don't want to speak inaccurately", you know? So one thing CS should stop doing tomorrow.
Eleni Vorvis: I think just stop making assumptions about what Sales' motivations are; just go and ask, or if you have a challenge, just bring it up. Just have the conversation. So, stop. I won't say, we're not hidingbehind things, because I think CS people are pretty vocal, but it's like just pick up the phone and talk to the person.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yes. Yes, I completely agree. The assumptions, and that also leads to the reactions, right? So, the assumptions. I think everybody should stop being assumptive on it, too. Not only CS, but Sales, too.
All right, so I want to round this out. I want you to finish this sentence for me, and I will share my thoughts on it. It might be the same. The Customer Experience gets better when ...
Eleni Vorvis: when we all understand their business, their motivations for buying and the path to value.
Eilsa Hawkins: I love that. And the customer experience gets better when we all work together and partner to make it the best experience possible.
Eleni Vorvis: We all play a role. CS is not just a department, it's everybody. And we talked about Sales, about everybody. Marketing, product, engineering, everyone plays such a role in what we do. We can't, CS cannot do it alone. Sales cannot do it alone. We leverage, we leverage the same people internally, just on different sides of the fence with regards to the point in the journey, so we're doing a lot of similar things and I think we forget that.
Eilsa Hawkins: Yeah, I completely, I completely agree with that. Well, this has been such a lovely conversation. Thank you so much. And y'all get out there and partner together; and just have the Customer and their business the number one priority in your mind. Thank you for joining.
Eleni Vorvis: You're welcome. Thank you.
Eilsa Hawkins: So as Eleni and I discussed, and many thanks to Eleni, your customer experience is one company and every team shapes that experience. Here's something to try this week. Ask yourselves or customer success counterpart, what's one thing our team could do to make your job easier? Listen, agree on an action and follow through. That's the real work of leadership.
Thanks for spending this time with me today on The Real Work of Leadership. If this episode gave you something to think about, or better yet, something to act on, please, take a minute to rate and review the show at ratethispodcast.com/realwork. And if you would like to learn more about working with me, for my Advisory Services, our Leadership Accelerators, and my One-On-One Coaching, please visit herrevenue.com. Until then, I'll see you next time.
