The Difference Between Self-Doubt and Not Being Ready with Jennifer Cangeme
Have you ever looked at an opportunity and immediately thought, “I’m not ready for that,” even when you were already doing the work? I have. Earlier in my career, I was helping run a large sales team after the SVP of Sales left, and when I was asked if I wanted the VP role, my first answer was no. I had never held that title before, and I let that convince me I wasn’t ready for it.
Jennifer Cangeme has had her own version of that experience. After leaving an incredibly demanding role and moving into private practice full time, there was a period when she really did need to recover from burnout and protect her capacity. Later, when an opportunity to speak came up, “I’m not ready” was still there, but the reason had changed. This time, fear, perfectionism, and self-doubt were getting in the way.
In this episode of The Real Work of Leadership, Jennifer and I talk about the stories we tell ourselves when we do not feel ready and why being qualified does not always make us feel confident. We also get into the way past experiences and emotions can influence our decisions before we even realize they are doing it.
3:26 – Talking yourself out of an opportunity because you don’t feel ready
6:46 – Knowing when you truly don’t have the capacity and when you’re just in your own way
7:16 – Elisa’s experience turning down a VP of Sales role she was already doing
10:59 – The additional pressure women can feel to be completely confident and qualified
13:51 – Defining what it actually means to be an expert
17:49 – Perfectionism, qualifications, and doing it scared anyway
19:32 – Figuring out when “I’m not ready” is genuinely true
22:43 – Using journaling as data for decisions, burnout, and self-reflection
25:38 – Knowing when you have enough information and simply need to act
29:40 – Leading through uncertainty when your team is dealing with fear and change
32:25 – Creating trust after layoffs, departures, and other difficult changes
37:29 – Rapid-fire questions on risk, courage, judgment, and betting on yourself
Mentioned In The Difference Between Self-Doubt and Not Being Ready with Jennifer Cangeme
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Elisa Hawkins: Leadership theory is easy; leading actual people while you’re managing up, putting out fires, thinking strategically, and still trying to hit the number, is something else entirely. Hi, I’m Elisa Hawkins, and welcome to The Real Work of Leadership. We’re getting into the conversations, decisions, organizational dynamics, and real-life pressure that come with leading a team and being responsible for the results.
Hi everyone, I am so excited for today's episode. So. People often assume courage means feeling confident before making the move. But some of the most important decisions we make as leaders, professionals, founders, and human beings, happen while we are uncertain, uncomfortable and genuinely afraid. In this conversation, we're going to explore what it really means to do it scared. Moving forward without pretending that fear is gone, but trusting yourself before you have proof. And learning which fears deserve your attention, and which ones should not get to make the decision. I love that so much, fear does not get to make the decision, right? Today's guest we have Jennifer Cangeme. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself Jennifer, and what you do?
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation. I’m Jennifer Cangeme, I am a licensed therapist. I'm located in South Carolina. I am in private practice, I own Wanderlust therapy. And, and we serve women primarily, and our goal is focused on helping women to find a way to not allow trauma to negatively affect them, and have more of a post-traumatic growth perspective on their life, and, kind of work towards living a life that they love.
Elisa Hawkins: I love that so much.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes, like, it’s such a passion of mine. And so like, this topic is so much in alignment, and is like, deeply personal to me, and so, I love being able to help people, and myself, like, while living it out. To live a life that we love, both personally and professionally, through the emotions, through the hard stuff, through the scary stuff. And, like, just getting to appreciate everything this world has to offer.
Elisa Hawkins: I love that so much. And, you and I met in a Facebook group. And when I saw your topic, that you really wanted to talk about this, I was over the moon about it, because it's something that I talk to a lot, in the women that I coach. And even leaders just writ-large, male and female, about, about leadership, and women especially, I think are like, we have this fear inside of us and, imposter syndrome, I think is too, it’s used too much. But if we don't meet one or two of the qualifications, we're fearful about applying for that promotion, or a new role, or is that, it could mean anything in your personal life, too. Like so, I think it, this is such a great topic, and I'm so excited to chat with you about this ‘cause I know I have actually, throughout my career, I've done some really good jobs, like the fear is there, but hey, I just jumped. And then sometimes it has held me back, so I personally have experienced that as well.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah the same.
Elisa Hawkins: Have you ever talked to yourself out of an opportunity, because you didn’t feel ready?
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes, and it's actually recent too. In the past few years, like, in my career for the past seven years, six of them were as a mental health director in a county jail. And that job was extremely overwhelming, exhausting, led to burnout. And I'm a hustle girl. And so while I was doing that, I also had my business, my private practice, on the side. And so, I had both of these things going, and I had reached, like, ultimate burnout. And, when coming out of that burnout experience, it led to a lot of this whole ‘doing it scared’ scenarios, of stepping into private practice full time, and like, betting on myself. I'm a part of a mastermind group for business owners, and I was really being, like encouraged and pushed to start, like, speaking and, like, doing keynote speeches, and doing all of that avenue. But I was feeling insecure, I was feeling not ready. I was like, self-doubting. And also at the same time, I was feeling like, I don't have the capacity. Like, I'm just coming out of burnout, I'm like taking my business from part-time to full-time, and I did it well, and I did it fast. And so, it was like, I also want to appreciate and enjoy the benefits of like, getting to be in private practice, and have that freedom of time, and like, be able to like recuperate, and like take care of myself. But then, I'm a hustler and I want to grow, and I want to do new exciting things, and like I want to be challenged. But do I really have the capacity? So like, between the burnout, the do I have the capacity, and then the self-doubt, ‘cause I haven't done it yet, I didn't apply for a speaking event that one of my friends in the mastermind was doing. And I was just like “I'm not ready. Like, I'll just support. I'll be the cheerleader for her. I'll help market. I'll like, cheer with my friends, get people to come.” And the interesting part is, in the summit itself when it finally comes around, and I had such a conflicted experience internally, because I was feeling so much regret that, seeing the women up there. And I'm like, I could have done that. I should have been up there, there's no reason not up there. Like, why did I hold myself back in that area? And like, really had to do that work after that summit of like, was it really that I didn't have the capacity and I was so burnt out, or was it like, I was just scared and anxious to, like, take this next step of something totally new?
Elisa Hawkins: And you felt like you had to be perfect. You felt like you had to be Mel Robbins up on that stage, right?
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah, and have like, the whole speech ready before I apply, and like, know exactly what I'm going to say, gonna practice it 10 times, and like. These women got up there, like, they owned. Like I, you’re getting me as I am, and like, they stumbled ,and they were just human, and I was like “Girl, why are you trying to do this perfectly?”
Elisa Hawkins: I love that, I love that. So you, did you come down after you kind of, like, sat with it for a little bit, you came down on, it was just the perfection, the fear?
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah, it was both. There was like, yeah like, Jenn in the beginning, in the first 6 months of the year I was not ready. I didn't have the capacity, I needed to fuel myself, I needed to take care of myself. I was expanding my business, so I really did not have the capacity to do it then. But in the, the next 6 months, that wasn't the case. It was just, I was in my own way.
Elisa Hawkins: You were in your own head. As we all often get, right? You know what, how about a similar story in a professional sense. Several years ago, I had taken over, not officially, but, and I wasn't getting paid for it, but I was helping the COO run the, a huge sales team. Because they had parted ways with the SVP of sales. And so, I was taking it on, and I was doing my own gig that I already had, while I was there, and I was doing this gig, right? And he asked me if I wanted the role, of VP of sales, and I told him no. And I told him no, because I was fearful, and because I had never, I had been in leadership, I had never been at that executive level of leadership. And, so, I just, my immediate response was no. And then I sat with it, and I'm like “Should I have really just said no when he asked me if I wanted that because, Elisa, you're already doing it and not getting paid for it, or the recognition for it.” And I called a friend of mine, who had actually, he was not with the company anymore, but I've called him and I like I bounced stuff off of him, and he goes “Elisa, what the hell are you doing?” He was like “You can do that with your eyes closed, go in there and do it.” He was like “And listen, if it doesn't work out, okay there's a lesson in that too.” And, spoiler alert, it ended up working out really well. I would, you know, I became VP of sales. I was able to help the team increase revenue from like, by like, 12 million dollars, and you know, it was a highly successful point in my career, and I gained so much experience, and so much learning from it. But my immediate reaction was no. Because I thought I needed to be perfect. I thought I needed to have already had that level of experience, and when in actuality I did have the experience because I was doing it. I was just in my own head.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah. And I think so many of us struggle with that aspect of like, forgetting the experience we do have, and what we actually are doing, even in different roles, and what we've already done in the past. You know? ‘cause the same for me, when I was like, “Can I really step into private practice? And like, build my clientele three times what it is right now in a short period of time.” And when I looked at what I was doing as the Director in this County Jail, like, it was a thousand inmates, it was crisis after crisis, it was like, lack of support, lack of team, like it was like “Girl, like of course you can, you are doing a tenfold for somebody else.”
Elisa Hawkins: For somebody else. Yeah. That is so meaningful to me right now, ‘cause I just had a discussion. I was getting some, kind of some feedback, on the advisory work that I do from a CEO of a startup, and I was kind of walking him through some things, and I said “Would this have been beneficial,” ‘cause now they're in a different stage, “but would that have been beneficial last year when you and I were speaking?” And he goes “Absolutely, Elisa.” And so, talking to him, and he goes “So why did you move into Her Revenue? Why did you start creating this?” And I was like “Well I'm super passionate about what I do. I'm super passionate about advisory work for revenue organizations, helping them get back on the right track, ‘cause I've done it with many companies. And I'm super passionate about leadership, and developing women in leadership.” Right? And I said “And then I just realized, hell if I'm going to work 12 to 14 hours a day for somebody else, to improve their organization, why can't I just have my own organization, doing the things I'm really passionate about.” So I totally feel that. Because, and we don’t think about it in that way, right? But yeah, I totally hear you on that. So let me ask you this, do you think, speaking of women and women in leadership, do you think women experience additional pressure to prove that they are confident, and qualified, and completely prepared, 100% perfect?
Jennifer Cangeme: I do. And like, I’ve experienced it, and I see it in my peers, and even in people that I look up to. Like as you just shared earlier, in your example of that, that male that was like “What are you talking about, that you can do this.” They automatically are like “No. Like go, we got this.” You know, we do, are like doubting, and questioning everything, and think it has to be perfect, and whether that's, like, because our culture expects so much of us, or our family, the way we grew up, or just the pressures we put on ourselves. We have this very irrational concept of what it takes to, like, put ourselves out there, and be visible and serious. And I had this recent conversation with someone that I like, admire, and she was a mentor for me growing up, and like, we meet for lunch. And we're at lunch, and I was talking to her about how like, I'm finally ready to start applying for speaking engagements. These are some of the topics I'm going to be putting out there, and I'm sharing this with her, and I can see her like getting a little anxious. And I could see her getting a little uncomfortable. And she started saying, like “Hey, that's great for you. but I think that people that are speaking should be experts.” And I was like, a little taken back for a hot second. I was like “Oh what do you mean? What do you mean, they only should be experts?” And she starts sharing how, she feels that if someone is going to be teaching, they need to have an expert, they need to be a specialist in this, whatever the topic is, and they need to have, like, hours and hours and hours of experience. And then she compared it to this training that she's doing. And she is very competent, she has been training in this modality of counseling for over a year now, she talks about it with so much passion, so much knowledge. Like, she gets you interested in it. And she thinks that she is not competent enough to go speak about it, because she hasn't completed the 700 of supervision that were required. And I was like, like it took me back, and then the really messed up part was, that after this conversation with her, for a hot second like, self-doubt for me kicked in. I was like, “Wait. Okay wait, am I like, am I actually ready or do I need more?” Thankfully I like, do the daily work, like I'm journaling, I'm reflecting, I'm talking to people in my mastermind group, so I'm constantly able to ground myself. But if I didn't, that self-doubt may have kept me from continuing to do it, because it seeped in, because someone that I respect and admire, doesn't feel competent enough, doesn't feel confident and is like “Oh, you need to be an expert in order to start to share knowledge.”
Elisa Hawkins:You do, and you do not. The thing I ask a lot, what does ‘expert’ mean? Like, I want to dig into that, because I talked about transparency, because transparency. Yes, it has a definition and so does expert. It has a definition, but every person has a different definition of it. Apart from the Webster's dictionary version, right? What is that person's definition, because it's going to mean something to everybody else too. It sounds like to this lady, it meant she had to complete her 700 hours in this training before she can view herself as an expert. But I would venture to say, that she got into this line of work because she already has expertise in it, just not in the coursework.
Jennifer Cangeme: Absolutely, absolutely. And she’s already inspiring others to be interested in this modality, but she didn't see it. And that definition of expert, yes like, it is so different for every single person. And like, how we define it comes from, like, our past experiences and how we define our self-worth and our self-confidence.
Elisa Hawkins: Mm hmm. For me, my definition of expert, is that you have operationally done it. Not that you went to school to do it, that you have operationally done it, because it, it actually drives me a little bit insane sometimes, that I see companies do this. And I specialize in sales leadership, revenue leadership, right? And it drives me crazy when I see companies bring a leader in, that hasn't ever sold a damn thing. Because if you have never been in the trenches, if you have never lived the life of what your reps are doing every single day, then you shouldn't be leading them. Now, I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of people that have some comments about that. But, I truly believe that, just as much as I believe that the top performer who is at the top of their game, is not always the best leader. I talk a lot about that, because leadership is a different skill set, but you have to understand the pressures in that.
Jennifer Cangeme: Absolutely. No, I agree. I think that lived experience, makes us more of an expert than anything. I just think that, like, I'm a huge proponent of vulnerability, and like, of being able to show that, like all of it, like the beginning, the messy middle, the end, you know? That whole experience, is what makes us the expert, and being able to share the whole experience, not just the end game.
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly. That is the whole reason that I, and that I, that I do the work that I do, with new leaders, emerging leaders, even you know, people that have been in leadership for a while. Because, no one prepares them for what the actual work looks like. And because nobody wants to talk about all the challenging pieces, all the messy bits, all the stuff that happens behind the scenes. And I think that we do our leaders a disservice, because we will train individual contributors, especially sellers, you know, 24/7, but we will not develop and train our leaders in the actual work. Not a theory, just the actual work. What it takes to have difficult conversations, because there's a lot of things that leaders are surprised at when they get into it, they're like, this not what I thought it was going to be and it gets all, it can be challenging.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes! And like, as therapists, like, that's the part that I love and, I'm just like, why are we not talking more about, because like, emotions are not leaving the room. No matter whether it's a room of CEOs, or it's just a room of girlfriends, the emotions are not leaving the room. And how do we talk about them, how do we work through them, how do we not the, let them affect our decisions?
Elisa Hawkins: Speaking of the perfection, ‘cause I still want to stay on this topic a little bit, because the research that I've been doing on leadership, and especially women in leadership, I discovered that our male counterparts, they will apply for a role even if they have a 40% qualification. Whereas women will not, even if they are 80% qualified. That 20%, they will not go after that role or promotion. And I really want to encourage everybody, because I coach a lot on, you can teach a skill, you can't teach will. And so a skill can be learned. So I'm going to tell all the ladies out there that are holding themselves back from something, just because they're not 100% perfect, they're not 100% qualified, go out and do it. And do it scared anyway, and work, walk through that fear. Because what you're going to get on the other side, when you're successful, is so much experience, and such a feeling of accomplishment, because you did that. And you can learn it, you can learn. The things that you don't know, you can learn, and you can learn them quickly.
Jennifer Cangeme: Exactly. And that's why, like, I'm not a fan of imposter syndrome, and that whole, like, word. Because it's just like, the insecurity and the uncertainty is just, you may not know a skill like, you may not be competent or confident in that skill, that does not mean that you can't become so.
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly.
Jennifer Cangeme: We have to stop letting that feeling, and I thought of “I can't check this box off.” Of it, keeps us from following through.
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly, exactly. So let's talk about this. Is there a point when ‘not ready’ is genuinely true?
Jennifer Cangeme: I think it can be, for some people. And I for me personally, I look, and like, what season of life am I in? What do I have the capacity? What's my priority that season? What role is like, too heavy right now? And I have to put more emphasis on it. So I think that, well it may not be that I'm not ready to actually do this responsibility, this task, this role, take it on. Do I have the capacity in this season? And so, I think that self-reflection, and being like, very self aware and like, journaling. I preach journaling like, on fire because that's how we check in with ourselves.
Elisa Hawkins: I need to get better about that. I started, I always start it, and like with meditation. I'll go through these moments where I do a very good job of doing it every day. And then I'll go through these moments that I don't, so I need to, I need to get better at that, for sure.
Jennifer Cangeme: That's human. That's human, you know, and I encourage everyone. Like, journaling. Journaling becomes data, and it becomes evidence, and it can help us in decision making. And so, in examining like, in this season of life, do I have the ability to take something on and say yes to it? Then it's looking at like, can I financially take this on? Can I emotionally, mentally, physically take this on? Do I have the time to take it on? If there’re no’s, then examine why there's a no. And is it legitimate, or is it fear-based, or is it like an old trauma wound that's showing up? Like, what is it related to the now? If it's not something legitimate, then it maybe, you need to examine like, do I need to challenge myself a little bit more? If it's legitimate, then maybe it's not the right time for it.
Elisa Hawkins: No, it's so true. And I love that you’re, this way. Because, I think about it like. For me, I'm in a season in my life, that my mom is aging, you know she just turned 80, and you know, I do want to spend more time with her. I want to do things there, there's an, you know, I'm over 50. So I'm in, it's just that season of my life, where there's other things that are taking priorities, and so when I look at saying yes to something, I have to keep those in mind. And so I love that you're talking about it, is like, whatever is coming up for you, to sit with it, and really understand is it something that's true? And that like, hey, you might be a new mom, like you know, and new moms struggle. Like, if they're in a leadership role, because when you are a new mom, like everything changes. Your priorities immediately shift, and so. The true things are very different. Your priorities are different, and everything is different. So I think it's really, I love how you're thinking about that. And we're talking about that, because you really have to, ‘cause it's not all just about the criteria of something, or the skill that you need to do. It is, like, the season of your life that you're in, and what is, and what is holding you back. And analyzing that, not just the, a criteria specific. So how often do you journal? Do you journal, like everyday? Do you journal throughout the day? Or, talk to me about that.
Jennifer Cangeme: For me it looks different, in various ways. Like, I do gratitude practice everyday, to help like, set my mindset in a positive way. I do reflective journaling, like, at least three times a week, where it’s reflecting on how I'm feeling, like brain dumping, reflecting on decisions, all of that. And then I also use journaling as a creative outlet. Like, one of my do it scared outlets. Like I am a fearless solo traveler, and so I love to journal in the creative aspect of, like, I get to scrapbook and do all of that. So I use it in three different ways. But every week, and every day in some capacity. And it's data. ‘Cause like, a really good example and how journaling helped me do it scared. In my burnout, like, we don't pay attention to our burnout, we just end up surviving through it. And it ends up years later. And it was for me. And where journaling helped me in that is, I have a prayer journal, and I was sitting there and I looked at a prayer from a year before, to what I had just written, and they were the same words. They were the same, like, dissatisfaction with how I was showing up, how I wasn't in alignment with my values, that like, I was not living out my passion. And like, seeing in a year I had the exact same words written down. It was the, like, kick in the ass I needed to be like “We have to do something.” Right? Like you have to start like, betting on yourself. Let's just do it.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah that, I say this all the time, and expecting different results is not going to do it. It will not do it. You have to pivot, you have to change, and it, and that's so interesting that that was coming up like, literally a year later, still coming up for you, you know? And I think we all have that, we all have those things. And it's interesting ‘cause I am a note-taker, and I'll write down, I love to write down things. Because that's how I learn. That's how I absorb information. And I, was going through this notebook that I like, old notebook, and it was literally the same business that I have today, was something I was starting to write about and think about years ago. So I totally hear you on that. Okay, I'm going to get better at journaling. I'm just going to make that promise to myself, I'm going to get better at it. I also heard too, that, that intention journaling is great, first thing in the morning. Or either the, before you go to bed the night before, so set your intentions for the next day, so when you wake up, you're like this is my intention for the day. Do you do anything like that?
Jennifer Cangeme: I do that, mentally. I don't write that down. But I do, do that mentally of like, what is my intention for the day. And I do specifically, more so for like, if I'm going into a challenge, or into a new situation like, what is my intention? What do I want to get out of it? Like, I'm very focused, in that aspect, with intentionality.
Elisa Hawkins: Love that. So how do you know when you gathered enough information? You were talking about data, in your journaling. So how do you know when you've gathered enough information, and you simply need to act?
Jennifer Cangeme: The reality is, like, we're never going to gather enough information. You know? That's what, y'all need to remember, ‘cause we'll do it forever. And think that we need to keep gathering more.
Elisa Hawkins: Very true, very true.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah, it's like, gathering enough information that you feel like you can, like, make a decision. And then I have to look at my emotions, and look at like, what else is coming up. Because especially in leadership and in business, like, so many limiting beliefs from childhood, from past experiences, show up that we don't even realize. But there's, in conflict resolution, in visibility, and having to like, communicate in front of large groups of people, like, so many insecurities from the past will show up. And we have to then examine those, more so than the facts. The facts are easy to gather, the work is more the reflection.
Elisa Hawkins: It's so true. And you know, let's talk about the flip side of that too, because I like, I have really had to do a lot of work on myself with this, because I go into the complete opposite mode, in that I over analyze, and I over index on all the things that I need to fix with myself. And I coach this to sellers too, because sales is such a pressure filled role within companies, it's, it's a pressure career. It just is. And you lose a big deal, you’re going to beat yourself up. You don't hit goal, you're going to beat yourself up. And I've spent 30 years, almost 30 years, in, as a sales professional, in both individual and leadership. and I found myself getting way too over, this edge, of the negative self talk, and the negative like, this, I've gotta fix this, I've gotta fix this, I've gotta fix this, and not celebrating the wins, and the, celebrating what I do well, and what I'm really great at. And I, and I know a lot of women out there are that way, and there’s some men. There's some men that I've coached, that were on my team, that were that way too. And I'm like, you have got to get, there's a fine line between analyzing and reviewing what went wrong, and beating yourself up to the point you can't move.
Jennifer Cangeme: Absolutely. And so many people struggle with that. I, I just feel as though like, I look at like “How do I define success?” And like “Why am I putting so much of my identity in this one definition of success?” Even in like, if your sale doesn't go through, there is so much that you learn through that experience, how you grew through that experience, how you challenge yourself through that experience. That, success can't be defined just on the outcome, ‘cause if it is, we beat ourselves up and we spiraled-out in that negative self-talk.
Elisa Hawkins: And this is so true. And I talk about this a lot. I learn more from my failures than my successes, and every failure that I learned from, because if you do, do a true analysis “What could I have done better here?” you know? “Should I have done this?” Or was it just, honestly not the right time for the customer, or we didn't have the solution to fit, really what they needed, so it wasn't anything that I did in the process or the rep did in the process. That analysis helps you learn, and gives you that data, right? To learn from it, and apply that to the next, you know, deal that, or the next whatever it is for anybody. I don't want to just talk in sales terms here, but whatever that looks like for anybody that you can like “Oh I learned from that, let me just do something a little bit different next time.”
Jennifer Cangeme: Exactly, exactly. And that's the journaling, just in the professional world.
Elisa Hawkins: Okay. I'm, I'm, I hear you. I'm going to journal. So how can leaders, this is something I talk about a lot, and especially in the market that we’re in today with, all of the rapid change, like with AI, and, and there, and there's layoffs happening, there's the job market is absolutely insane right now, and is so, just in an upheaval. And leaders, have to be able to lead through uncertainty. I actually have a whole session in my accelerator, the Real Work of Leadership, about leading through change and uncertainty. Because leaders are not going to have all the answers. And sometimes, they don't agree with what they're having to do, either. But, but sometimes, they can't show that to their team. But how can leaders do a good job of, allowing their team to be vulnerable, come to them, share their, you know, whatever it looks like, share their grief. Because hey, there was just a bunch of layoffs, they're a part of the team standing, meanwhile, they lost their friends. Or they didn't lose them, they just they're not, you know, working with them anymore. Or it could be, I'm really uncertain about what AI is going to do to my career, to my role, or anything else, just in this crazy world that we find ourselves in. How can leaders really recognize and appreciate that while also leading through it?
Jennifer Cangeme: Like all facets of professionalism, or struggling with that. I think that it's kind of twofold, and I think that there's work for a leader to do individually, ‘cause these are all like, valid fears, and emotions, and concerns, and uncomfortable conversations to anticipate, and sit through like, what's coming up for you? How you're feeling about it? Like, feel your own emotions about it, before you have a conversation with these people. Like sit through your own experience of it, and like, kind of validate to yourself, like that this, is it's okay to feel all this, to you have this perspective, so that you're like, regulating yourself before stepping in to help other people through it. You're sitting with your peers, your employees, your team, whatever, whoever you're working with. For me personally, like, being authentic, and vulnerable is. Lead with that, you know? Don't give the corporate bullshit responses, like just listen. Like, the corporate bullshit responses will just like, shut them down. They don't want to hear it. They automatically will get that. Just listen, just support, like validate, be like just a safe place for people to be vulnerable.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, I completely agree with this. Because the worst part of the job, is to have to part ways with someone, and even if it is for valid reasons, performance-based reasons, you've done everything you could, and you know, just for whatever reason. Because you're affecting someone's livelihood, and I take that very personally. And I also know that there is impact, that it's going to have to the broader team, writ-large, especially if they've been with the company for a while, or what have you. And one of the things that I found, that the team really appreciated, is immediately after, after we parted ways, I got everybody together on a call. And I, you know, shared the news and then I gave them space to ask any questions. And I would tell them “There might be things I cannot share with you, so I just want you to know, and if I can't share with you, I will let you know that, but I will try and be as transparent as possible, where I can.” Because you have to protect that individual, you know? You have to protect certain things. Then I would offer, if they wanted to have a one-on-one with me, that we would schedule that. They could have a one-on-one with me, and I did this through some pretty, whether it was parting ways with someone on the team, or say there was an executive that left, or there were certain things that were happening within the organization. I always, it was like an open door policy in the virtual world, right? Hey. I will, I would do an, office hours, I would, you know, make sure that I gave them the room to have space with me. I managed leaders too, and I would tell the leaders “You need to get the team space to have room with you, as well.” And not everybody took me up on that, but there were some people that did, and maybe, voice their concerns, and you hear them, and truly hear them, and listen to them, and it really gave them the space, and it created trust.
Jennifer Cangeme: And it lets them work that out, you know? Because uncertainty’s going to click in for them, you know? When they see changes, like in different ways, stuff’s being turned around, and pulled up. And so it gives some space to get it out, and then they don't sink in it, you know? And then your team will perform better, because they're not sitting there, drowning in that insecurity and that uncertainty.
Elisa Hawkins: Because what always came up, especially if it was a performance related issue, what would always come up is well, like, “Well I'm scared for my, for my job now.” And I would say, I would say “Well here's the thing, we are responsible for our own results. We are accountable and responsible for our results.” And I would share with them “Here's what I see you doing.” I'm not looking to part ways with somebody if they didn't hit their goal in a quarter, but if you haven't hit your goal in a year, there's accountability that has to happen in revenue organizations. And it's not because that person is not good, it's maybe it's just not a right fit. And by the way, not everybody is cut out for leadership. But also, not everybody's made out for sales. It is a brutal business, and so I would give people the opportunity to say “Hey is this, like, is this really what you're cut out for?” Because understanding, that not everybody is. And that's okay ‘cause everybody has their own skills set, their own talents, and, they need to go to somewhere where they can shine.
Jennifer Cangeme: Especially like, in our culture, and like this may be controversial but we've gotten really soft. And so like people need a lot of validation, unfortunately, fortunately, however you want to look at it. And so, sometimes they just need that validation. And so being able to point out,like, I get that self doubt came up, but like here, “This is how you're killing it, this is what you're doing well, this is a suggestion on how you can improve in this one area.” That will be super beneficial to validate, be able to meet that need, for that person.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes. And I just had this, it was on an earlier podcast episode. But I talked about this, because you have to have tough conversations. Because if you are not providing feedback, it's how you provide it. But if you are not providing feedback you are doing a disservice to your team. You are not developing them, you are not growing them. I'm really passionate about that, it's not that I think everybody needs tough love or whatever. I think that, it is that, when there's a performance related issue, or when there's an issue, say, drama between coworkers, people fighting about something, internal shift, you have to manage that, and you have to sometimes, you have to have tough conversations. And you cannot be afraid to have those tough conversations, is that you have it in a human way. And you question through that, and listen to them about it. People need to hear it, and understand it, but delivery is a huge component of that too. Yeah, all right. So we're going to get into some rapid fire questions, because we, our time is about to end. What is a risk you are glad you took?
Jennifer Cangeme: A risk I'm glad I took was solo traveling. And especially overseas. Like, I'm so glad I did it. I feel so much confidence, and so much like, self-worth in doing that. So glad that I took that risk.
Elisa Hawkins: Oh, I love that, I love that. I love a solo travel moment. Where did you go, on your first solo travel?
Jennifer Cangeme: Well, my first solo travel in general was DC. My first International was London and Paris.
Elisa Hawkins: Love that, love that. That's amazing. I love taking a good solo trip. I did a solo trip to Toronto. And I went to Niagara Falls, I actually saw Mel Robbins live, and I saw the Lion King. It was great. And then I did, I like to do a solo occasionally to the beach. ‘Cause I'm a beach girly, and I get clarity at the beach. So if I feel like I need clarity, I will go for like, a long weekend or what have you, and do that. I have not traveled solo abroad yet.
Jennifer Cangeme: It's so empowering.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, I bet. Okay, a fear that you have out grown?
Jennifer Cangeme: I think that I've outgrown, like, the fear of like, judgment of others. Now I like, I don't care. Like, I'll post whatever, I'll put whatever out there, I will show up as me. Like, I do not fear the judgment of others anymore.
Elisa Hawkins: Well judgement, somebody else’s opinion of you, is none of your business, is what I like to say. So, give us a piece of advice about courage that you no longer believe?
Jennifer Cangeme: That courage, like, means, like, bravery. And being, like, tough and strong. Like, that is not, to me, the definition of Courageous. Courageous is just showing up, and following through that, or what it feels like, no matter what it looks like. Just getting to the other side.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah. And I don’t know who said this, but I repeat it often. “Courage is not the absence of fear, courage is doing it, is walking through the fear to the other side.” That's courage –
Jennifer Cangeme: Doing it scared. Mm Hmm.
Elisa Hawkins: – Doing it scared. Okay, something you wish you had done sooner?
Jennifer Cangeme: Something I wish I had done sooner, was bet on myself. I wish I did not drive myself to burn out, working for someone else, when I was already in my private practice, and could have easily been in a healthier place sooner.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Doin’ it sooner, but there's a lesson in that too.
Jennifer Cangeme: Oh yeah.
Elisa Hawkins: You've learned that, yeah, yeah. So one thing you would tell your younger self, to do scared?
Jennifer Cangeme: You know, there's honestly like, I don't think there's anything I would tell my younger self to do scared, because in reflecting, I was doing more things fearless back then, than even now. Like, I had less self-doubt, and less like, I would just do stuff. Like I would just show up, and do it, and not, I wish that older me would have more of that, now.
Elisa Hawkins: That older you would have more of the younger you?
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes, like that fearlessness and just like, we just do it. We don't even second guess.
Elisa Hawkins: Well, some of that, too, can be through the wisdom that you have gained. Because you know, that, that could be the case, too. Because as we get older, we do get wiser, for sure
Jennifer Cangeme: Yeah.
Elisa Hawkins: Do you know, one thing I have to say that I would, I would tell my younger self to do scared, is start a podcast? Because I have been wanting to do a podcast for literally 10 years. And, I kept stopping myself, because I have a Southern accent, so I was kind of scared about how I would come across, am I going to sound like a country bumpkin, you know? And so, just kept letting things get in the way of it, and literally I had podcast equipment sitting in my closet, that had been sitting there for 8 years. And that's the podcast equipment I'm currently using. I wish I would have done it sooner, because I love it so much. I enjoy it so much. And so that's what I would have told my younger self, do it scared. Start the podcast.
Jennifer Cangeme: Yes, and we love your accent. Us southerners love it.
Elisa Hawkins: I love it, I love it. I love it. Alright. Well thank you. This has been an amazing conversation. I appreciate you spending time with me today, and I know the listeners are going to get so much out of this. And hey, what I'm going to end with is this; thank you for joining the Real Work of Leadership podcast and, go out and do it scared. We'll see you next time.
Thanks for spending this time with me today on the Real Work of Leadership. If this episode gave you something to think about, or better yet, something to act on, please take a minute to rate and review the show at ratethispodcast.com/realwork and if you would like to learn more about working with me for my advisory services, our leadership accelerators, and my one-on-one coaching, please visit herrevenue.com until then I'll see you next time.
