From Top Performer to New Manager with Becca Hammer
We’re really good at promoting top performers. What we’re not nearly as good at is preparing them for the completely different skill set that comes with leading a team. I learned that pretty quickly when I moved into my first leadership role and realized there was a lot I had not been prepared for.
Becca Hammer and I have both spent years in sales, leadership, and developing teams, and we’ve both seen how different the reality of management is from what people expect going in. You have to stop jumping in and doing the work yourself. You have to learn how to coach, manage up, give feedback, delegate, and give your team room to make mistakes and learn from them.
In this episode of The Real Work of Leadership, Becca and I are talking about the shift from top performer to new manager, what surprised both of us when we first moved into leadership, and why developing new leaders has to go a lot further than handing someone a new title and expecting them to figure it out.
3:14 – Becca and Elisa’s first experiences as new managers
5:33 – Taking everything on and learning when to question the status quo
9:05 – Moving from top performer to actually coaching a team
13:07 – Your team is not you
15:54 – Why companies promote leaders without preparing them
22:22 – Getting clear on why you actually want to lead
29:47 – The identity shift from top performer to leader
32:01 – Transparency, trust, and what leaders can’t always share
36:21 – Three skills new managers need to develop early
48:18 – Developing yourself as a leader when your company isn’t doing it for you
Connect with Becca Hammer
Becca Hammer is a sales and sales enablement leader with experience across media and SaaS. She began her career in sales, grew a $3 million book of business, and later moved into sales management, leading a team responsible for $15 million in revenue. She eventually moved into sales training, where she combined her sales experience with her passion for teaching. Today, she helps organizations strengthen sales management and leadership development through training and enablement.
Connect with Becca Hammer on LinkedIn
Mentioned in From Top Performer to New Manager with Becca Hammer
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Elisa Hawkins: Leadership theory is easy. Leading actual people while you're managing up, putting out fires, thinking strategically and still trying to hit the number is something else entirely. Hi, I'm Elisa Hawkins and welcome to The Real Work Of Leadership. We're getting into the conversations, decisions, organizational dynamics and real-life pressure that come with leading a team and being responsible for the results.
Welcome to The Real Work Of Leadership. I'm so excited about today's guest. I'm sitting down with Becca Hammer and we're talking about the promotion that nobody prepared you for. Because what we're really great at is promoting top performers. What we're not great at is training them and developing them for the new skill set that's involved. So we're going to talk all things leadership development today. Hope you enjoy.
Welcome to our conversation with the fabulous Becca. So Becca, why don't you just tell the audience a little bit about yourself before we dive in?
Becca Hammer: Yeah. Hi, thanks for having me, Elisa. I'm Becca Hammer. I have a long and storied career in sales, sales leadership and sales enablement. And so started out of the gates selling just like everybody else, carrying the bag, doing the quota. And I did that for about 15 years and then realized in a really strange way, that so many people were coming to me and saying, hey, Becca, I've got this weird customer. What would you do with it? Hey, Becca, I've got this thing. Or where's that form? Or how do you do this process? And all of a sudden, I found myself in that position where I was answering more questions, but it felt good. And the word sales enablement didn't even exist at the time, but the word training did. So I started off in training and moved through and morphed into enablement. And when you're in training, whether you know this or not, you end up doing way more outside the topic of just sales. And that's how I ended up talking about sales leadership and came to really dive into the topic that we're going to discuss today. Thanks so much for having me.
Elisa Hawkins: I was so excited. And you and I met in non-sales. We met in sales enablement with our previous company and have stayed connected ever since. And I am grateful to have you. And I've learned so much from you. And we've riffed off of each other and licked some wounds together. So we've definitely been through it. That's for damn sure.
Becca Hammer: It's for sure. Oh, thank God, we can swear. Okay, I'm good now.
Elisa Hawkins: Oh, no, we can one hundred percent swear, so they will be putting explicit on it. So, because again, this is real talk, because as you and I well know, there's a lot, there's all kinds of different trainings and all of that. There's all kinds of, everybody speaks the speak of leadership, but nobody's really talking about the real world, like the behind the scenes water cooler chats that we've had, right?
Becca Hammer: Right. Nobody ever positions the nuts and bolts of day-to-day management and leadership, because it's just not sexy.
Elisa Hawkins: It’s not.
Becca Hammer: Nobody would want to be a leader if they actually knew all the nitty-gritty that was involved in it. Oh, no, no, I'm a stay individual contributor. Thanks.
Elisa Hawkins: Thanks, exactly. So let's talk about like what… and I'll riff on mine too, but what was your first experience as a first-time leader, your first gig? What were some of the things that you did not expect?
Becca Hammer: Well, like so many sellers, I thought that the natural trajectory was always start as a seller, move into sales management, then into executive sales leadership. And I didn't know there was any other way. So I started moving and my first job was the sales manager. And I started managing the team I used to be a part of. So I was one of those unfortunate or fortunate individuals. I mean, I knew everybody on the team, but I also knew everybody on the team and they knew me. Right. So it wasn't like they had to figure me out or anything. We've been working together for a long time. So, you know, I went in and tried to be cool and I tried to, you know, think about what they did well and play off of that. But there was just so much I was thinking I'm prepared for. I don't know, I was probably good on the people's side. I was horrible on the reporting side, on the actual like manager side, managing up, I was horrible. I had no idea what I was doing.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, no, it's so true. And the managing up piece even escalates the further up the ladder you get in leadership, right? And one of the things that surprised me, as a first-time leader, for sure, is because I did, unlike you, I did not go into a team that I had already been a part of. I actually took over a team. I moved, you know, I moved down to Florida and took over a team. But one of the things I was not prepared for is I was actually managing, leading, the leader who had been demoted.
Becca Hammer: As your first gig? Oh my god, your first manager gig.
Elisa Hawkins: As my first gig. My first manager gig, yeah. That was… that was like, talk about walking on like having to navigate.
Becca Hammer: Who do we really want to stick it to? Let's stick it to Elisa, because let's have her manage the former manager who just got demoted. That'll be easy.
Elisa Hawkins: Who just got demoted. Yeah. And so like, like now, if it were me, Elisa 2026, I would have said, I'm not, you're going to need to move him to another team. But I was so green. And so just like gung ho. And yes, I'm, you know, I'm here. I'm in it. You know…
Becca Hammer: Yeah, because the answer's always yes, right? In your first, in your early, I'm not going to say your first, I'm just going to talk about all your early… until you build that experience. The answer's always yes. Yes, I'll do whatever you want. Yes, thank you for the promotion. Yes, thank you for the shit team. Yes, thank you. I'll make it work. So many women, I'll make it work.
Elisa Hawkins: Right. I'll make it work. Right. We do that a lot. And we carry so much on and we take things on that actually we shouldn't. We have no business taking on. But because we're like, yes, yes. And we need to fix it. We're like fixers. Right. So. So one of the things, too, that you talked about reporting, and this is something that was a shocker to me and I don't know if you felt the same way, was the amount of reporting that… not just the amount of reporting that you had to do, but the amount of reporting that you did and nobody actually looked at, or referenced. Did you feel that same way?
Becca Hammer: The first time, the amount of reporting was, it was a mountain of reporting. And again, I just picked it up from the prior manager and kept filling out the same forms and doing the same numbers and putting the same shit together and sending it into the black hole, assuming that somebody was doing something with it. And it wasn't until, I was like, two weeks I was out and nobody had asked for anything. And nobody asked my replacement to do anything. Like, that’s when I first got the idea that this was just me just doing the thing, because it had always been done.
Elisa Hawkins: Cause it had always been done, right? And then I'm like and I'm like, why are we doing all of this manual reporting, when we actually have… now back in the day, like for me, my first leadership role was 2010, 2011. And so, I mean, but we were using Salesforce. I mean, there was still robust reporting back then in Salesforce. Well, you know, so I'm like, why are we having to pull all of these manual reports together and get them in by Sunday evening on our sales team, when it's actually all in our CRM, right? Like that made no sense to me. Did you have that same experience?
Becca Hammer: Of course I did. Right. And it was just and it was taking information out of one system and putting it into a different one. And because they didn't talk to each other. But I mean and you know today there's AI to do all that, thank God, a lot of that reporting. But but again I think, are we even asking why we're doing it. Right. Is this just it's…
Elisa Hawkins: It just doesn't even matter anymore.
Becca Hammer: But used to matter, because once upon a time we used to do things like this but we haven't done that in five years.
Elisa Hawkins: And that goes to the managing up thing, too, right? Like, question it. Like, you know, I always tell people, like, listen, you can professionally ask and challenge the status quo. Like, that's what we teach and coach our sellers to do, with prospects and clients. So we need to be doing the same thing in our organizations, too. And you can challenge the status quo and say, like, hey, help me understand, because I see a better path, but help me understand, maybe I'm not seeing what you're looking for, right?
Becca Hammer: Right. And so is that, you know, seek to understand or, you know, if you really want to be the manager queen of the world, seek to consolidate.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: And bring a better mousetrap to the table. Hey, you know, I'm doing these five reports every week. And I was just wondering if I could put all these together in one view. And, you know, would that be appreciated? Don't go doing it until you find out somebody appreciates it. Because then that's just more work for you.
Elisa Hawkins: Because you don't want to step on any toes, peeps. Let's just put it that way. Like, sometimes you can.
Becca Hammer: But organizations hate change. Yes.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes, always pick your battles, pick your battles. So one of the things we've talked about too, Becca, is like one of the things that we thought we were prepared for, but the reality of it is very different, is the coaching piece of things. And going from being a top performer as a seller to actually moving in to being responsible for coaching and building rockstars on your team. So talk to me a little bit about your experience there.
Becca Hammer: I was terrible at it, because first of all, I did not… OK, I'm going to take one step back from the whole coaching piece, because first of all, there's the transition period, when you go from individual contributor to being a manager, or leader, where you need to figure out how to let go of all that stuff, all the individual contributor tasks and the things that you did and the minutia of that. Most early leaders do not understand how to let that go. And so you got to figure out how to draw some lines and say, I'm not an individual contributor anymore. I don't have to keep doing this. Because there's going to be a million little things that you got to let go, before you can become the coach that you need to be. Coaching, number one reason people don't coach, no time, right? There's never any time. And so you need to figure out how to make time. And so it's doing a really hard introspective look on how much individual contributor work am I still doing?
Elisa Hawkins: Yes. And are you selling for your sales team? I literally, I would be in calls and I would be like, no and then I would go in and take over, right and sell for them. But that's not beneficial for your team, the individuals on your team, because they're not learning by you doing that. And it's not beneficial for you, because if you're always going in and closing for your team, then now you're going in and closing, you're not actually coaching and building the team that's going to do it on repeat.
Becca Hammer: And you're not being a leader, you're not being a manager, you're being a seller. You're being the salesperson.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: So did you want two jobs? Did you sign up to do your job, or did they give you a manager title for a reason?
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, it's so funny like when I started moving in, when I moved into leading leaders, I would tell them, I'm like, I need you to let them fail. And they would get this horrified look on their face and they're like have you lost your damn mind and I'm like no and I'm not saying do it in like a multi-million dollar deal, but you have to do it in those smaller deals, you have to give them the bandwidth to make mistakes in a meeting, or on a call with a customer. I'm not saying go down and have them go down in a flame of glory, right? But I'm just saying you have to give them opportunities to learn from the mistakes that they've made.
Becca Hammer: Why don't new leaders allow their teams to make mistakes, to fail? Because they believe that then it's a reflection on their management ability.
Elisa Hawkins: Correct.
Becca Hammer: It's like if my team, if this person doesn't close the big deal, if my team doesn't meet goal, it's a reflection on me. And then the question of did they hire the right person comes in and then what am I supposed to do? All I can do is go in and for the save, right? And talk about the emotional capacity to say, I have to be okay failing too. Right. Because it's not just them.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: You're going to fail. I mean, if you let them fail and they fail repeatedly, that's a new problem. Right. If they fail and learn that’s a new win.
Elisa Hawkins: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because your team is a reflection of you as a leader. That's very true. But it's like if they are not actively growing and their ability to sell, if they're not actively learning and growing, then it's going to come out in the wash and you're not going to be an effective leader, because you're not growing your team to really be growing their sales profession and their career and how they have conversations with customers, right? One of the things that I learned, that is something that I repeat consistently and it was a piece of advice I got, as a first-time leader. It was a counterpart of mine, she was on customer success, account management side. She was not a new leader. Her and I were out, you know, for tapas and, you know and some cocktails, like on a Friday. And I was like, oh my God, they're driving me insane. Like, I do not understand. Why are they not picking up this concept? Like, why are they, you know and she, she's like, Elisa, I need you to understand that your team is not you. They are not going to perform like you. They are not going to, you know, do the things that you do. And it like was a light bulb that went off and I was like, oh my God, that's so true. And so you have to take, because everybody has their individual strengths, their challenges, the things that they need to improve upon. But their style, the way that they do things, the way that they even work, is going to be different from you. So you have to take the “me” out of it, the “I” out of it and then understand, really get in. And I want to pull a thread on what you said is really understanding, listening to understand and really digging in and asking questions about your team, right?
Becca Hammer: I totally will. And I'm going to stay there, too, because, you know, this is one of those things, where so many organizations take a top performer, touch them with the leader, the manager wand and say, go make more of yous, right? They think if somebody sells really well that somehow they've got some sprinkle dust, or magic power, or juju that they can go and then just, you just tell the team how you do that and make a bunch of yous. That never happens, because the individual contributor has these skillsets that are not transferable in a leadership. They are not a one-to-one. I mean, if you think about it, what does a top performer individual contributor take? They take a tremendous amount of competition, a little selfishness, a lot of go get, a lot of breaking down and kicking down some walls. They can be low rules if they want. Those are exactly the opposite traits of an amazing and outstanding leader, aren't they?
Elisa Hawkins: Right. Because I say this all the time, not every top performer is going to make a great leader. Some top performers just need to stay top performers. They need to stay in their role. Right. Because not everyone is cut out for leadership.
Becca Hammer: You're so right.
Elisa Hawkins: And I'm going to have a whole podcast dedicated to that, because it's very true. Some of your best leaders are actually your mid-performers. And I'm not saying that top performers don't make great leaders, but there are certain traits that make people great leaders that are really taking the eye out of it. Speaking of top performers, why do you think that companies do not invest and train and really, really training and developing their leaders. Because I don't know about you, but my first time as a leader, I was actually in a management training program, before I was promoted. And it was like a glorified sales training. It was like I was at an enterprise level. So like I… we even gave presentations like we're giving presentations to a customer, had absolutely nothing to do with leadership, right? And really preparing people, right, for leadership. I'm like, well, I can do this with my eyes closed, for God's sakes. Like, why are we doing, like, I don't… and then it really hit home, once I got into leadership and I'm like, ooh, they did not at all prepare me for this, right? Why do you, because you work with companies a lot and I work with companies. Why do you think they will invest a ton in sales training and they will train the sales team until the cows come home. But what they're not doing is really developing and training their leaders. Why do you think that is?
Becca Hammer: A couple of reasons, as I was thinking about this. So I think companies want to believe that they made a great choice, when they promoted somebody. And in a bizarre sense of putting everything in the same bucket. That includes knowing everything, right? Oh, they've been around the block.
Elisa Hawkins: Right.
Becca Hammer: They've done this before. And so that's one thing. The next thing is and I honestly, I never got any training and I'm doing fine, right? Some senior leader, nobody ever trained me. I'm okay, right? I also think that, you know, companies have a thousand plates spinning simultaneously. The old manager left two weeks ago. It's taken me two more weeks. I need somebody who can plug and play right now. And they, you know, when the old manager was on vacation, this person stepped up for a week and did a great job. So they know what they're doing. And think about it from a higher up leadership, they know what they're doing. What does that mean? Does that mean they know how to develop and spot talent? No, it means they know how to write reports.
Elisa Hawkins: And a week filling in, because I did that as well prior to a week filling in, ain't the ball game, right? It's a very different thing from actually being responsible for the long haul of it. And one of the things that I read too, which I found really interesting, is that a lot of companies can't trace the ROI back to that. And I am like, you've got to be kidding me right now. Because if you invest all this money in the sales training, but you're not investing in the leaders, a poor leadership experience will kill revenue before anything else will. You and I have seen it happen in the previous companies that we've worked for. So talk to me a little bit about your experience there. Have you seen that as well?
Becca Hammer: Totally. So a couple things. One is the ego factor, right? The higher up the leadership organization goes, the less people say, I need help, or I need support and some somebody helping me do this thing. No first time manager can admit that like, hey, I need some training here. I need some help. And then the other thing too and I mean, I guess it's better than never, but you know, when I'm called in… I have a, by the way, I have a 12 week leadership course that I do that takes care of all the basics. Do you know when I get called for that? When the managers are so underwater, they can barely take a breath, right? And it's like, God, sailing. We need some leader, we need some manager training. Like, holy shit, did you just now think about that? And that's so sad, because here were all these people with all this potential and excitement. And when I get to them, after they've been on the job for a year and they're so… They're doing so poorly. They're like, nobody ever trained me. I didn't…. And it's not till they get into the program that they go, nobody ever told me I was supposed to do that. And you know, I'm like, of course they didn't. That's why I'm here. We can reverse the course. But I'm not called in that often. I mean, I do this, honestly, I do this in every company that I've been in, regardless of what my role is, for the last 10 years, because I tell them it's available, but they never seek it out proactively.
Elisa Hawkins: Right. And I have a whole thing that is like built to lead, preparing yourself prior to the promotion. But I think women are better at asking for help outside of work, but we sometimes when we're in, we want to be perfect. We want to be seen as being perfect. We feel like we have to be perfect. And you need to get coaching. You need to get training. And I will say, too, and you and I very much align in our leadership training and how we approach it, because it's really the real work of leadership, which is obviously the name of this podcast, but because it's like a lot of training is based in theory, I mean, I remember I got, it was actually at our former company, I got leadership training, not yours and it was a different one. And we spent a week on developing a mission statement for our team. You know what, you know what my mission statement is, because I lead revenue and I'm responsible for a huge sales team and a huge revenue number. My mission statement is bring in revenue. Like that's like, you know, but I had to spend this whole week on developing this. And I'm like, this is not a leadership… Like you've got a basic and really what the real work of it is and not just some theory and like creating mission statements, you know.
Becca Hammer: Right. The series I do is so basic. It is how to reset the relationship when you're managing former peers, how to give feedback. How to hold a good one-on-one. How to do a performance review.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: Coaching is obviously a big thing. All of these things, nobody teaches you. And most managers, most leaders get in and what do they do? They think about their favorite manager and they think about their worst manager. And they go like, I want to be more like the favorite and I don't want to be less like the shittiest. It's like, wow, that's not a lot of tools.
Elisa Hawkins: It's very true. It's very true. And, you know, I mean, my why, because I ask this of anybody who wants to be in leadership, who has never been in leadership before, but maybe they're a top performer or what have you. And I say to them, talk to me about your why. Because if it's for money, you got a big… you got another thing coming. You need to have a different why. And also too, the career trajectory doesn't always, like you and I definitely, we came from that, the sales generation of, hey, it was like, it needs to go up. Right. So I'm a seller. I'm a top performer. Now I need to get into leadership. Now I need to get into VP. Now I need to get into whatever, right, keep climbing the ladder. And sometimes the best thing to do is to you can go different directions, right, not necessarily you can go in a lateral move, or go to a different side of the company, where you're going to learn more about it, but one of the things I say about… like I really want if I can get the listeners to really think about this, if you're thinking about this, because you either are… you're listening to this podcast, because you either are a new leader or you you know, you're wanting to get into leadership, or you're a company that is like, hey, I've got a leadership problem, because Becca just described a lot of the calls that she gets, right? Think about your why, because that's so important. My why of leadership was because I had had so many horrible leaders that I wanted to be a different type of leader. My big why was the team and the coaching itself. It wasn't the money, or the title, or anything. It was I wanted to give the next generation of sellers a different experience than what I had.
Becca Hammer: Wow. Look at you, Mother Teresa.
Elisa Hawkins: I just... Well, I mean, I get paid for it, too. Let's be clear. But, you know, yeah.
Becca Hammer: Well, and I'm a seller. I didn't know that... Well, there wasn't... Anyway, there was rung one of the ladder, rung two, rung three and it went straight up.
Elisa Hawkins: Right.
Becca Hammer: That's not the case anymore and I a hundred percent agree with you that, you know, try this, think about why you want to do this, because I want to stay here for a second. So many people like because the money, I'm like, oh honey, maybe maybe in some other role, but if you are in a sales role, you will take a pay cut. Let me just say that very clearly, if you're in a sales role and you move to sales management, chances are very good that you will take a pay cut. So one of the reasons I did it was because A, I wanted the experience, but B, I found out for myself, personally, that I got more of a kick out of helping somebody else win, than I got out of winning myself.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: That's really important.
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly.
Becca Hammer: Top performers love to win almost more than anything else in the world. I don't. I like to help somebody else, I like the coaching concept. I like the support concept. I'm a cheerleader, but I'm also a manager. That was more exciting and fulfilling to me. And I didn't hate Sunday nights when I was a manager and I did when I was in sales.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, exactly. You didn't get the Sunday scaries. That's what, you know, the Sunday scaries, like, oh, Lord. Yeah, I mean, the same thing is that I really enjoyed… and for me, because, hey, listen, there's a lot of challenging things that you deal with as a leader. Like, that's just the nature of it. You're dealing with humans. You're dealing with hitting revenue numbers, you're dealing with, you're not in revenue generating, whatever. You have a goal that you have to hit, whatever type of team you're leading, right? And we focus a lot here on the revenue side of things, because that's where our experience is predominantly at, is on the revenue side of things. But top performers, like the companies promote them, because they think oh well then this person's going to be able to build mini-me's and create and that is absolutely not how that works. And they're ill-prepared and what I've seen as well is that it takes new leaders, at least 9 to 12 months, to get really in a groove and get comfortable, when they have not been trained. Whereas if you spend 8 weeks, 12 weeks, whatever, in training on the real work of what they're going to face, that significantly reduces their ramp time as a new leader, as well as keeps that revenue engine going. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Becca Hammer: Thank you. Everybody talks about rep ramp time. You know, I do in sales enablement, I do so much onboarding. It's not even funny. And the only thing we want to know is how fast will they get to productivity? How fast will a rep get to productivity?
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: Build pipeline, close deals, renew, whatever the metric is. But nobody ever talks about manager ramp. Nobody.
Elisa Hawkins: Nobody. Nobody.
Becca Hammer: And except, except if they're not ramping quote fast enough, whatever that means, because nobody's ever defined it, you know, mostly it means it is the team made goal or stayed flat or whatever. And if they haven't, then we made a bad manager decision. How unfair is that?
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah. And also, too, I'm going to talk to the top pereformers out there and pull the thread on what Becca said earlier about the paycheck side of things, the pay side of things. Listen, if you got into sales, more than likely one of your biggest driver is money, right? It's your biggest driver. But I knew, like even as I got into executive, more executive leadership, is that I was signing off on commission checks, where the reps were making probably three to four times more than I was, as a VP level. And I actually loved it. I mean, again, there were times that I thought to myself, geez, maybe I just need to go back into sales. But those were the challenging times, shall we say. But I loved it, because it was my goal to sign off on commission checks. I wanted that team to grow and close more deals and see more revenue into their incomes, to support their families, or their life, whatever they're looking to do, right? I loved it. And I loved seeing people go from a point where, hey, maybe they had been struggling and now that I loved seeing them grow in their profession, because sales is an art, right? It is a craft, as I like to call it. And even the top sales professionals continue or should be continuously growing. So I totally, totally appreciate that.
Becca Hammer: But see, Elisa, that's why you're a good manager. That's why you're a good leader. You get joy out of watching other people succeed. You know, could I have been a little bit jealous at six for your commission check? Yes, but, you know, I get more thrilled about signing off on it and say, God dang, let's make sure we tell the story of how they make gold to the other so that we can, you know, this tide can raise all boats.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah. And hey, listen, don't think there wasn't a little FOMO going on in my neck of the woods, when I was signing off on that. I was like, damn, especially if it had been a challenging week, right? A challenging, you know, challenging thing where you're as a leader, you're going, you're, you're dealing not only with your team having to come to you, like you've got all kinds of things coming at you from this and then things coming at you from the top down. Like there's all, there's so many you're in that sandwich, right? One of the things that you and I also talked a lot about is the identity shift from top performer to leader and what that looked like. I'd love to hear your experience, Becca, on what you've seen, in that shift, from being that individual contributor, top performer to leader.
Becca Hammer: I mentioned earlier about what individual contributors get, right? They get high recognition, high pay, high esteem among their sales peers, job satisfaction, because winning is good. And you can do a lot of those things as an individual contributor, but you really got to prepare for what I call the glory shift. And what that means is that you're going to work twice as hard as you ever did as a sales manager and you will get no recognition for it.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: All right. When you worked hard as a seller, you got recognition. When you work twice as hard as a manager, you get none. You got to prepare for that. You got to be OK with it.
Elisa Hawkins: Well, your job is to give the recognition like that’s…
Becca Hammer: For the team.
Elisa Hawkins: … for the team. Like your job is no longer to get the recognition. It is to give it and to make sure that everybody in the company knows what your team is doing, whether it be an individual person on the team, or the team at large, you know, going from this percent to goal to this percent to goal, closing some of the biggest revenue, whatever that looks like, it's your job now to give it, not receive it.
Becca Hammer: Exactly, exactly. You know, we talked about the pay cut that you got to be prepared for potentially. One of the things that I think a lot of people don't see as an individual contributor, that when you move into management, you become kind of this cog in the machine. You're not… Individual contributors, especially sellers, have a tremendous amount of agency usually within an organization. They can kind of get away with a lot, depending on where you are. When you move into management, you are in a no man's land, right? You have these people, quote, below you and then you've got a lot of people above you and you're just kind of sitting there and you don't have a lot of influence. I mean, you do over your team, but you don't have a lot of authority up. You don't have a lot of influence up. And so you just kind of got to work with that. I think that's a real shift that people don't realize, when they move into leadership.
Elisa Hawkins: It's so true. And one of the things, too, that I want to pull a thread on and really speak about is, I see in almost every single survey that is given to… not just sales teams, but across organizations, when they do their annual surveys or what have you, is transparency is always like the top thing. But I want to actually shift that, because people need to think of, because what transparency means for one person is very different from what… because I always ask the team that, what does transparency mean to you? And then that will give me the answer that I need, so I can navigate that. Because let's be real talk, like this whole conversation, every conversation that I am having on this podcast is real talk. There are some things that we cannot be transparent about. Like, we sign the scary documents. We have the, like, there are things that happen, when you get into leadership, especially if you get into higher levels of leadership, you cannot share with the team. And I actually was very honest with my team about that. Say, hey, listen, I totally hear you and I'm going to be as transparent as I possibly can, but there are going to be things that I cannot share with you. And that is just, that is how it is. And so I will, what I can promise you is I will be honest in telling you, hey, I can't really talk about that. Or, hey, this is what it is. We need to move forward, because hey, there's some things, right, Becca, that we don't agree with that happens within companies. Like, you know, hey, decisions are made. We're not going to necessarily agree with them. But the bottom line is, it's not our decision. We're the one… We just have to execute it. So we've got to get the team behind it. So talk to me a little bit about that and your experience with transparency, because I know you've definitely seen that too.
Becca Hammer: Here's the thing, I remember very distinctly working at a company, where I was an individual contributor and my manager brought us all together in our weekly meeting and said, there's a lot going on in the company right there. A lot of rumors, because of course, the less you know, the more the rumor bill spins.
Elisa Hawkins: Of course, of course.
Becca Hammer: And so we're sitting in the meeting and the manager said, look, you guys, I'm going to tell you everything I can tell you. After that, he goes, I either don't know or I can't say. And I need you to be OK with that. Well, goddammit, we were all adults and we said, that's fair.
Elisa Hawkins: Right. Right. That's it.
Becca Hammer: That's fair.
Elisa Hawkins: Because you understand like, but when someone is honest and is just like, hey, real talk, I can't, I can't talk about it or real talk. I don't know. That decision was made at this level that I was not, you know, I'm not at that pay grade. I am not at that level, but this is what it is. And this is how we have to move forward. Right.
Becca Hammer: Yeah. And I think that that's the fairest thing. Look, to suggest that your manager is some kind of a, you know, super goddess and should know everything, you can do everything. And if you don't get that same transparency and I find that very generationally important, that somehow they're holding out on you or something. No, no, no. That's just, that's not even the case. At every level of the organization, you're only going to get so much information. The next level down, the next level down, the next level down. That is, that is the way and it is not going to change.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, and you can't change the rumor mill, but what you can do is confront it if somebody is bringing it to you. And the trust, I would have sellers come to me and say, hey, this is what I heard. And then I would, I would either be like, well, damn, I never heard that or like that. That's the craziest shit I've ever heard or what have you. Or like, okay, that is not the case or what have you, you know, but I feel like the building of trust is the biggest thing. So what transparency says to me is that, hey, I want to trust you. And if you are honest enough to say, hey, there's going to be things that I can't share, or that I just honestly don't have the answer to, but we can work together to try and get answers, whatever we can. But building that trust with your team is really, I think, where the transparency part of it comes from. Don't you agree with that?
Becca Hammer: Yeah, I do. I totally agree. A hundred percent.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah. What are some of the top three skills? Let's talk about… I have my top three skills. What are some of the top three skills, Becca, that you think that new leaders should develop immediately?
Becca Hammer: Okay. In no particular order, number one, how to give feedback, both positive and negative. Look, and just to be very clear, telling, saying, good job, that's not feedback, that's an atta boy, that's an atta girl, right? That's not feedback. I want you and you don't even have to go through official training for this, although Elisa and I both, I'm sure, offer this as a course. But you can find out anywhere how to give feedback that is heard and that is acted upon, because feedback that nothing happens with is not great feedback. And you can't decide to start giving feedback, when it's all negative. I mean, everybody has had somebody in their life who constantly is only negative, right? I mean, I'll tell you a very quick story. One of my very first sales managers never said a positive word. Never. And back in the day, I was on a sales team. He would bring us into his office and swear at us for 45 minutes straight, screaming at the top of his lungs. Yes, that's true.
Elisa Hawkins: Oh, God.
Becca Hammer: Yes, yeah. And never said a good word about anybody, never said a good thing to us. And if, God forbid, he ever called your name, ever, I was sick inside, right? Because I only ever got negative feedback. So you got to figure out how to balance positive and negative feedback. The beautiful thing is that you can practice giving that positive and negative feedback to your friends and family.
Elisa Hawkins: Exactly. And you already do it. People that aren't in sales look at it as like the boilerplate, the old school boilerplate, like the pushy salesperson, right? But we, sales is actually, you're in everyday life, you're negotiating with your kids, you're negotiating with your partner, you're negotiating, like you're navigating so many different… you're selling an idea to, you know, on a community project, if you will. There's so many things that come into that. So if you think about it, I love that you said that in the feedback. Because you're giving feedback, if you have a, you know, a disagreement with your partner, a disagreement with a family member, you're navigating that and you're giving feedback on… and they should be giving you feedback, right, so that you can navigate that disagreement. And I feel like the positive things, that feedback is the best kind to give, you know, because you don't want to, especially if your seller is just like an all-around nice human being and you're like, oh my God, you're not doing them any service by not giving them constructive feedback and not yelling at them, but constructive feedback, you know, because that's how they grow.
Becca Hammer: Right. And if you think, if you find it challenging to give feedback, because you think that somebody is going to accept it wrong, or you think that somebody's… what… because you're concerned about your feelings about it, or their potential feelings about it, position feedback as you're doing this, because you care. I genuinely care about your development. I genuinely care about your well-being. I genuinely care about your success. And to that end, I'm going to give that information to you. I'm going to give that feedback to you. And Elisa, we've worked together a long time. I hope that you have felt that whenever I've given you feedback, that it was because you matter to me. It's because I want you to be successful. It's because I don't want you to fail, or I don't need to be seen such a way in the eyes of somebody else in the organization, whatever it is, right? It was because I cared. I get really worked up about this.
Elisa Hawkins: I do too, because honestly, the best feedback that I've received as a leader, is from team members that I have given some tough feedback too.
Becca Hammer: Yes.
Elisa Hawkins: And they like, I still, you know, mentor them to this day, because and it's not the ones that I was like did not give feedback to constructive feedback to like, you know, hey, I have coached and led a lot of sellers in my career and a lot of leaders. But the ones who have grown the most and who really trust me the most, are the ones that I gave that kind of tough feedback to, because they knew I was giving it to them, because I cared, because I really spoke up and I listened to them. But I also said I really need you to hear this, because of this, like the why behind it. Because it's not just the feedback itself, but the why it's important that they take action out on it.
Becca Hammer: Yes.
Elisa Hawkins: Right.
Becca Hammer: Yes, feedback. One of the hallmarks of feedback is actionable. We can do... OK, I'm going to ask you to do a whole series on feedback, because I would love to talk about this for another 35 or 40 minutes.
Elisa Hawkins: But I agree. Agreed. Agreed.
Becca Hammer: I'll keep going. My list. The next thing. And this is challenging that, again, nobody ever tells you how to manage up, how to manage down.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: You think as a new manager that the only thing you have to do is manage down, meaning to the people that report to you. No, girl. No. Managing up really matters. And nobody tells you about it. And you can learn it fast, or you can learn it slow. And I suggest you learn it fast.
Elisa Hawkins: It is so true, because how you talk to your leader, how you develop the relationship with your leader and what you ask of your leader, because I've had leaders that, the executive leaders that I never had a one-on-one with, I never… I never, like, I maybe talk to them once a month, because they think, especially, once you get higher up in the leadership ladder, that you don't need it, but that's actually not the case at all. Everybody and leaders especially need coaching and need development, but it's how you also position the work that you're doing. The work that… because and how you position it in the language of leadership and how you speak about the work that you're doing, because it is all given team accolades. But how did you get your team to this place, right? And how you talk about and how you talk about challenges, if you're not going to hit the goal for this quarter, we have recognized that this is going to be an issue, here's why and here's what we're doing to solve for it, right? Also, pulling the thread on, hey, what you did great, we recognize that we are really winning heavily in this market segment. So here's what we're doing. We're now going to pull more threads on that and we've got a plan in action. So how you talk about and how you're leading the team and the things that you're noticing in the revenue, the things that you're noticing in the market, all of those things and how you speak about that is so important.
Becca Hammer: Needless to say, I was on the slow side of managing up. I just thought and like so many of us do in our careers, we think that if we work our asses off and we really take care of our team, that that's the job. And until they come raining down on you, you didn't realize that you had to manage up.
Elisa Hawkins: Well, and not only that backup, but I'll tell you this, I thought that as a revenue leader, that, hey, I was going to show it just like I did as an individual contributor, but making sure the team hit their number.
Becca Hammer: Show me the number, baby. Ya, that’s it.
Elisa Hawkins: Show me the number, baby. That's, yes, part of it, but it ain't the only part of it, because time and time again, I've seen a lot of leaders stay in their position, or get promoted that their team did not hit their numbers. And then several people that did hit their numbers and the team was outperforming, they get moved out, or they're in a rift, or what have you, for whatever reason. So, like, I will say that, like, I made the mistake of thinking that the number spoke for itself. And if my team is excelling, then that is… that’s showing that I'm doing the work that's actually not what… that's part of it, but that's not… that's only like 15 to 20 percent of it. That's not the other part of it.
Becca Hammer: Isn't that a gut punch? And nobody tells you that.
Elisa Hawkins: It is.
Becca Hammer: So here we are. We’re telling you.
Elisa Hawkins: Okay, we’re telling you. We’re telling you.
Becca Hammer: Number three, one of the biggest challenges that I see for new leaders especially, is that they do not… it's a skill that you need to develop, but put it on your radar, develop sooner than later, how to get work done through others. Again, you will spin down into a cycle if you don't learn how to delegate. If you do, if you start taking on, not only all your work, but all the work of every single person who reports to you and et cetera, et cetera, you will drown.
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: And so you must learn to delegate. And since this is a… Since this is a women-oriented podcast, I'm going to say it out loud, women are the worst at this. They take…
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: .. and they take on and they take on and they keep going and they never say no and they never push any work off onto anybody else. And push off work sounds bad, doesn't it? But they never delegate work to anybody else. And that's a woman problem. It's such a woman leader problem.
Elisa Hawkins: And it also leads to burnout.
Becca Hammer: Yes. Yes. You got to figure it out. And it's like, let them call you a bitch. Let them call you pushy. Let them call you bossy. I don't care. But save your sanity, get work done and you'll be promoted.
Elisa Hawkins: It's so true. And what another person's thoughts on you are is not your business is what I…
Becca Hammer: Not your problem.
Elisa Hawkins: It's not your problem and not your business. You know, I mean, I will say the managing up thing is a big thing. I also think the leadership operating system, which is a course that I have in my leadership, in that leadership series that I do is, because you also… to prevent the burnout and to make sure that you are dedicating the time that you need to, which is the number one responsibility is coaching and leading your team, is to develop an operating system for yourself. Whether it be, we've talked about one-on-ones, whether it be, we talked about this, but it's a whole operating system, even to give yourself time for that strategic… Like you're not in react mode, you're in proactive mode, you're strategically thinking about the business. Because as I say, every team is a microcosm of the big cosm of the business, right? It's like you have to operate as your own business. And if you're not strategically… if you're not dedicating time to being strategic and proactive in this, you're losing, because all you're going to do is just be in a wheel and you're just chasing, chasing, chasing, being react, react, react. And you have to build out a whole system for yourself to do the things that are number one, most important, in your role, which is leading your team. And also growing your team, growing whether it be revenue or growing production, or whatever that is, you have to develop a system for yourself to be successful and not burn yourself out.
Becca Hammer: If you don't, I mean, just imagine yourself like, you know, you're in a rushing river. If you don't have an operating system, if you don't have your processes, you are taken down by the current, right? It takes you.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: You need to make a boat.
Elisa Hawkins: It does.
Becca Hammer: I need you to get in the boat so that you can decide when I need to pull over to the shore, how I take the rapids. If you ain't got a boat, you're going to drown.
Elisa Hawkins: It's so true. I love that analogy, Becca. It's so true. It's so true. I love it. All right. Well, we are almost at time. So what can listeners do today to either develop themselves as leaders, or to help their leaders develop?
Becca Hammer: A couple of things. I mean, we had talked about how, you know, a lot of leaders that don't get any training or development oftentimes think about the leaders that they've had. And so and and it's not a bad thing. But what I want you to do is, if you have a leader that you admire and want to emulate. Have the courage to reach out to them and ask if you can have some of their time. Very few people… No, you admire what I do. No, I'm not going to give any time. Ask if you can have some time. And then all you do is ask questions. The same kind of, what do you find really challenging? How did you start, how did you learn to manage up? How do you get work done through others? How do you, how do you, how do you, how do you? And then you ask and you shut up and you just listen, listen, listen. And, you know, see what you can get from them, see what their philosophy of management is, how they think about people. I just, I've heard, I've learned so many wonderful things from people in really high leadership places, because they did these things. And I was like, I never would have asked. I never would have known.
Elisa Hawkins: It's so true.
Becca Hammer: Yeah. Read some, you know, just some easy ones that I think are important. You know, I talk about how important feedback is. I'm a huge fan of Kim Scott's book, “Radical Candor”. I just love... I think radical candor is so critical and it will really help you position the way you think about feedback and how valuable it is. And again, because you care, you get feedback. It's like, but 21 irrefutable laws of leadership, I thought was really interesting.
Elisa Hawkins: And I saw you had this. I have not heard of this. And so I have got to… I am putting that in my Amazon cart right now.
Becca Hammer: I liked it on tape, it’s really long. It's a grind, but I listen to it a section at a time. And then I really thought, right. And I write.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah.
Becca Hammer: And that's not me, because I really hate business books. OK. This is going to sound weird but “Never Split the Difference” is…
Elisa Hawkins: I got that back there too. I got that back there too.
Becca Hammer: So here's what I love. “Never Split the Difference” is because, believe it or not, when you enter a management role, you are a never ending negotiator now.
Elisa Hawkins: So true…
Becca Hammer: You are negotiating up the organization. You are negotiating with your team members. You are negotiating to solve problems for your teams. You're negotiating with customers. You're negotiating, you fucking negotiate with everybody. And whether you think it or not, right?
Elisa Hawkins: It’s so true.
Becca Hammer: It's like, it's kind of like we're all in sales. We're all actually negotiators as well.
Elisa Hawkins: Negotiating…
Becca Hammer: So learn how to become and only… you don't have to do everything. This guy's a professional hostage negotiator, but take two things, right? Use your 3 am DJ voice. Right?
Elisa Hawkins: Yes.
Becca Hammer: And then finally, the last one is and I don't have a specific one that I love the most, but find a coaching book or talk to somebody and read about coaching and find the coaching methodology that speaks to you enough that you'll actually do it. Because again, part of the thing is, is that every great manager coaches, but you've got to learn how, at least some kind of process around it. I don't want to be overly prescriptive about it. Maybe your company has coaching methodology, but learn how to be a coach. And you can, again, start doing that whether you're in a leadership position or not.
Elisa Hawkins: Yeah, I totally agree with that, Becca. And I will have to, I will have to say is that also listening to it, like… and also thinking about how you learn best and how you take in information. So, like, I read, I love to read, I love books, because I can actually highlight things and I can actually do that. But I love listening to podcasts. I love listening to audio books. Sometimes I'll even have the audio book and the actual book, so that I can go through and highlight things and tag things, or what have you. But listening to podcasts, find… Please listen to the Real Work podcast, please, you know, I'm going to ask you time and time again to like, subscribe and follow. But listening to different podcasts audio books, whatever the… whatever your method is that you prefer. Definitely and I couldn't agree more with those books. I'll have to add too on “Never Split the Difference”, there is a master class with him as well by the way, in case you did not know that, so FYI. And for those of you that have masterclass subscriptions, or what have you, that is a great one, just FYI on that. I actually have a book that I've been reading that I love that I need to recommend which is “Thinking in Bets”...
Becca Hammer: Thinking in…
Elisa Hawkins: … bets, yes, by Annie Duke. She is a professional and world champion poker player. And she's talking about how thinking like and that's all about strategy and thinking about things, because I love non-traditional business books. So I will have to recommend that as well. I would say get yourself also a coach, look for… there's a never ending supply of different coaching and workshops and things that you can do, to really develop yourself. And hopefully if there's companies listening, leaders listening, develop your leaders. They really need it. And develop your new leaders, especially. And make it the real work, not the based in theory. Make sure it's people that have actually done the work that are actually talking to your potential leaders, or your new leaders that understand the challenges that they're going to face. That is such a huge thing. Becca and I are both in this business and so we understand, but we also understand, because we've been in it for many years and we've gone through it and we've navigated all of these challenges. So seek out people that really understand and have done the work and can be either a coach, or a leader, or a trainer, or really enabling your team. So that is just something. And if your company is not doing it, encourage them, ask for it and go find it yourself, because coaching is such a huge thing. I mean, I have a trainer at the gym. I have an instructor for yoga. I have my own coach, because I want to consistently be better and so I invest in my own development. And sometimes your company might actually chip in for that too. So I will just say invest in your development and companies invest in the development of your leaders.
Becca Hammer: Yeah, and if I could just say, like, sometimes, you know, cost is an issue, right? It's always, you know…
Elisa Hawkins: It is.
Becca Hammer: … corporate budgets are terrible these days. And it's like, how much money can I put into this? I also want to encourage you to think about leveraging your network. I think this is highly underutilized. I mean, you know, Elisa and I used to work together. We know each other's skills. She called me on more than I love talking about this. And you know what? If you had a sales team and we were a network and just like that guy, you know, remember 12 years ago, when you did that, when you did that one training, would you be willing to come and do that with my group? I'll do something for your team as well, right? Whatever your magic is, or I don't know, bake you a casserole. I don't care what it is, but we can set up, women are clever and we can set up a barter system, where I get to tap some of your expertise to help me and you get to tap some of my expertise to help you. It doesn't always have to be paid for, which I think a lot of times becomes a barrier to entry for a lot of people. So keep that in mind.
Elisa Hawkins: It one hundred percent does. I have former sellers that I led at other companies that I actually mentor and coach and because they asked me to. And so, like, there are people that leverage your network that, to Becca, your point of, like, hey, that leader that you, like, really admired and loved, reach out to them and keep your network close. It's all about community. Like, now more so than ever is all about your community and make sure that you are pouring into your community as well. So I think that that's such an important thing for all of us to do is build that community and pour into our community and also give back. So I will say that and I will end my preaching mode on the community aspect.
Becca Hammer: What beautiful parting words.
Elisa Hawkins: All right, Becca, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for spending time with me today. And I am probably going to be pulling that thread and we're going to be talking about feedback in an upcoming episode. So I will… So audience, stay tuned for that. And Becca, tell the people where to find you.
Becca Hammer: Excellent. So I can be found at hammerenablementsolutions.com. Hammer, just like if I had a bang, bang, Maxwell silver hammer. No, too old for that one. Let's see. Hammer time.
Elisa Hawkins: Hammer time.
Becca Hammer: HammerEnablementSolutions.com. You can find me on LinkedIn under BeccaTheTrainer. Go figure. So I'm not hard to find. It's Becca Hammer. Thanks, Elisa, for having me. This has been a ball, the fastest time that I've spent this week.
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